DeletedUser5160
Guest
I think we are running into another balance issue then. CRABs outrange Mantas. Mantas can now use contact, but the CRABs will always be able to kite them with no retaliation. Mantas are boosted for damage against CRABs.
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DeletedUser
Guest
DeletedUser4381
Guest
I've fought without them regularly, as I dump a load of them during large events (such as the summer one that just finished) so that I have space for the build quests that pop up. Having done so, I can say for absolute certain that they help my battles. They take my attack bonus from 100%(ish) to nearly 250%(ish) increasing most damage from 4-6 to 5-7 and a guaranteed two-shot kill. Without them, far more enemy units survive two hits (when a kill is possible) so for me they are absolutely worth the space I dedicate to them.
maxbergheim
Squire
How much happiness give premium roads? Roads could be put into a search rather than avatars
DeletedUser7473
Guest
The change to take away the flying ability was the nail in the coffin for the Manta.
With a range of 5 or even 7 if it is changed they will still be at the mercy of most units.
The better option would have been to simply swap the types of Manta and Sub Cruiser like it was done back in Arctic Future Age with Dragon Drones and Surrogate Soldiers.
If the Manta were to be the ranged unit it would gain boni against artillery units and so its flying ability that also boosts against artillery units would be a perfect match then.
And the Sub Cruiser as a light unit with its range of 12 combined with [Contact!] would also be better suited to combat the hidden Hydroelectric Eels with a range of 10 compared to the Manta with just a range of 5 or even 7 if improved.
Also the artillery unit Turturret can hit the Sub Cruiser so the issue about its boni against light units would be solved, too.
So why not simply swap the types of Sub Cruiser and Manta?
With a range of 5 or even 7 if it is changed they will still be at the mercy of most units.
The better option would have been to simply swap the types of Manta and Sub Cruiser like it was done back in Arctic Future Age with Dragon Drones and Surrogate Soldiers.
If the Manta were to be the ranged unit it would gain boni against artillery units and so its flying ability that also boosts against artillery units would be a perfect match then.
And the Sub Cruiser as a light unit with its range of 12 combined with [Contact!] would also be better suited to combat the hidden Hydroelectric Eels with a range of 10 compared to the Manta with just a range of 5 or even 7 if improved.
Also the artillery unit Turturret can hit the Sub Cruiser so the issue about its boni against light units would be solved, too.
So why not simply swap the types of Sub Cruiser and Manta?
DeletedUser5429
Guest
Oceanic canal (2x2) : 100 happiness, 35 diamonds
Oceanic sidewalk (1x1) : 200 happiness, 20 diamonds
(just in case: I would strongly advise not to spend diamonds on road, that would be a terrible waste)
maxbergheim
Squire
If the values are these I calculated that replacing all the roads with the premium I would have 8500 more happiness with a spending of 3800 diamonds :/. In the past I spent diamonds to buy premium roads. The premium roads in the past gave me double happiness to the normal ones and I felt like a great investment. But these are almost equal and 8,000 more happiness I do not need
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DeletedUser5160
Guest
So at the moment... and only observing this from a single age perspective
Sub Cruisers: Ranged, has Contact, range of 12, move 22, and boosted damage against Light and Arty
CRABs: Heavy, Reactive armor and Blast, range 7, move 20, boosted against Fast and Ranged
Turturrets: Artillery, Mortar, range 20, move 10, boosted against Heavy and Light
Eels: Fast, Hides in Bushes, range 10, move 35, boosted against Artillery and Ranged
Mantas: Light, Contact and Poison, range 5, move 24, boosted against Heavy and Fast
I know the units have others skills too.. but only including the ones that seemed to increase their damage potential
TTs vs Mantas: makes sense for the Mantas to have a short range. Prevents them from hitting them the first turn thus giving the TTs an advantage, they could hit them first turn if their range was any greater.
TTs vs CRABs: CRABs move way too slow. Truly brings home that TTs have a buff against them. a team of TTs will wipe out a team of heavies before they even knock at their doorstep.
CRABs vs Eels: Eels out range CRABs, attack sooner and can get out of the way faster. Had this manual fight where the eel was kiting me the entire time and caused me to wipe. I even had this fight of 8 CRABs vs 8 Eels and the eels still won. I think to balance this, the CRABs need a bigger defense buff against Fast. On top of that, the Eels will be constantly reducing the CRABs' offense making it easier to take them down with every bit of damage they take.
CRABs vs Subs: Subs still out range them. Subs aren't able to kite as easily due to the lower movement, but that contact hurts. and CRABs have a lower base defense than Subs, and get lower defense buffs against the two units weak against it. Also Subs get a bigger defense boost against their 2 units. I once again think the defense bonus CRABs get against Subs should be higher so they could tank Contact. Reactive armor is almost required to increase the survivability of this unit, but I normally see them taking max damage when fighting subs.
Subs vs Mantas: I can see this being balanced. The two units have almost the same movement. Subs outrange mantas so cannot be hit with Manta contact and risk being poisened.
Subs vs TTs: Subs do have a decent chance of survival against TTs. Even the AI is able to get up in the face of TTs first turn and normally they cannot escape their contact range or move out of the way fast enough.
Eels vs TTs: Eels can hide in the bushes at the TTs doorstep and avoid all damage as long as they stay in the bushes. Reinforces that these are artillery killers.
Eels vs Subs: First thing that stands out is why do Eels have a bigger defense buff against Subs than CRABs? It does make sense that they should be able to tank the shots from Subs' Contact while hiding in bushes and subs won't get their defense buff because they're forced to fight close quarters with an eel.
Mantas vs Eels: The movement stat of these two units is huge. Eels can hide in bushes and easily move themselves out of the range of Mantas even if they are not hiding. When eels do hide, the Manta has to be point blank for any chance to hit. Doesn't give much of a chance for it to flex its bonus. I would suggest increasing the defense bonus against Fast for Mantas to possibly stand a chance. Will also need to mention that the Mantas will have less attack every time an Eel kites.
Mantas vs CRABs: CRABs can only take at most 4 damage but could take 5 if the unit is poisoned, thus taking them down in 2 turns but only after the CRAB has hit the manta twice. CRABs can also out range the Manta, so it does not fear Contact.
Okay... done with my giant wall of text. Felt like by putting this in perspective, it could spark more conversations about the units in OF. Unless in OF4, we get another type of "Behemoth". If we get that though, I feel that that unit should be the unique one that swings the weakness pentagon in a different order.
Sub Cruisers: Ranged, has Contact, range of 12, move 22, and boosted damage against Light and Arty
CRABs: Heavy, Reactive armor and Blast, range 7, move 20, boosted against Fast and Ranged
Turturrets: Artillery, Mortar, range 20, move 10, boosted against Heavy and Light
Eels: Fast, Hides in Bushes, range 10, move 35, boosted against Artillery and Ranged
Mantas: Light, Contact and Poison, range 5, move 24, boosted against Heavy and Fast
I know the units have others skills too.. but only including the ones that seemed to increase their damage potential
TTs vs Mantas: makes sense for the Mantas to have a short range. Prevents them from hitting them the first turn thus giving the TTs an advantage, they could hit them first turn if their range was any greater.
TTs vs CRABs: CRABs move way too slow. Truly brings home that TTs have a buff against them. a team of TTs will wipe out a team of heavies before they even knock at their doorstep.
CRABs vs Eels: Eels out range CRABs, attack sooner and can get out of the way faster. Had this manual fight where the eel was kiting me the entire time and caused me to wipe. I even had this fight of 8 CRABs vs 8 Eels and the eels still won. I think to balance this, the CRABs need a bigger defense buff against Fast. On top of that, the Eels will be constantly reducing the CRABs' offense making it easier to take them down with every bit of damage they take.
CRABs vs Subs: Subs still out range them. Subs aren't able to kite as easily due to the lower movement, but that contact hurts. and CRABs have a lower base defense than Subs, and get lower defense buffs against the two units weak against it. Also Subs get a bigger defense boost against their 2 units. I once again think the defense bonus CRABs get against Subs should be higher so they could tank Contact. Reactive armor is almost required to increase the survivability of this unit, but I normally see them taking max damage when fighting subs.
Subs vs Mantas: I can see this being balanced. The two units have almost the same movement. Subs outrange mantas so cannot be hit with Manta contact and risk being poisened.
Subs vs TTs: Subs do have a decent chance of survival against TTs. Even the AI is able to get up in the face of TTs first turn and normally they cannot escape their contact range or move out of the way fast enough.
Eels vs TTs: Eels can hide in the bushes at the TTs doorstep and avoid all damage as long as they stay in the bushes. Reinforces that these are artillery killers.
Eels vs Subs: First thing that stands out is why do Eels have a bigger defense buff against Subs than CRABs? It does make sense that they should be able to tank the shots from Subs' Contact while hiding in bushes and subs won't get their defense buff because they're forced to fight close quarters with an eel.
Mantas vs Eels: The movement stat of these two units is huge. Eels can hide in bushes and easily move themselves out of the range of Mantas even if they are not hiding. When eels do hide, the Manta has to be point blank for any chance to hit. Doesn't give much of a chance for it to flex its bonus. I would suggest increasing the defense bonus against Fast for Mantas to possibly stand a chance. Will also need to mention that the Mantas will have less attack every time an Eel kites.
Mantas vs CRABs: CRABs can only take at most 4 damage but could take 5 if the unit is poisoned, thus taking them down in 2 turns but only after the CRAB has hit the manta twice. CRABs can also out range the Manta, so it does not fear Contact.
Okay... done with my giant wall of text. Felt like by putting this in perspective, it could spark more conversations about the units in OF. Unless in OF4, we get another type of "Behemoth". If we get that though, I feel that that unit should be the unique one that swings the weakness pentagon in a different order.
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DeletedUser7812
Guest
That would actually require a lot of thinking. Why do it yourself, when you have a whole community thinking for you?
DeletedUser8150
Guest
Hmm....not sure this contact change fixes the problems with either units. Thouhg an increase in range may help v Crabs at least. Not sure at the moment ppl will build the mantas on live. What problem do they solve that Drones or Hover tanks don't solve taking less space pop and for drones the same att bonus on the barracks?
DeletedUser
Guest
Contact = Always retaliates against attacks IF in range of 5
translation to reality
Contact = never retaliates because enemy always more than 5 away
(even low range CRABs have 7)
that would changes it to
Contact = only retaliates against CRAB
isn't much better
DeletedUser7779
Guest
I was thinking that too tbh but rebalancing a unit which has already been released on live server will cause too much discontent imo. (like last time in AF). Also not sure if that wouldn't make subs overpowered, as turtles will become useless against them --> will have to completely rethink battle strategies --> even more discontent.
I agree, isn't much better ... just realized that even if crabs get poisoned they still wouldn't die in 2 hits (4 + 4 + 1 = 9 damage), unless we wait for 1 more turn but I doubt that would be very practical.
Hmmmmm, how about increasing the damage from poison to 2 then and decreasing movement to 20? Seems a little overpowered at first but it will make them as slow as crabs - meaning all other troops will be able to kite them.
DeletedUser8150
Guest
Multiple strikes from mantas to get your 2 or more?
DeletedUser7779
Guest
Hmmmm good question, @Zarok Dai does the poison stack?
DeletedUser
Guest
I will need to find out.
DeletedUser
Guest
No, poison does not stack. A unit is either poisoned, or it isn't.
DeletedUser7779
Guest
Thanks for the quick response. Hmmm then no point in targeting the same unit once it's poisoned.
Any chance of rebalancing the mantas one more time? I still think they're a little too weak even if range is increased to 7.
DeletedUser
Guest
They are still being looked at, and I am passing on the suggestions that even with more range the unit may still be unbalanced.
DeletedUser7779
Guest
Thank you for that Zarok. Problem is, regardless of the range, mantas get easily 2 hit killed by turtles. Might even get 1 hit killed if Orangery boost applies. So, i was thinking (my previous idea about increasing poison to 2 won't really change anything, so discard it), they need a way to protect themselves from turtles. Crabs for example have reactivate armor which prevents them from being 2 hit killed. Mantas need something like that too. So 2 suggestions:
Increase range to 7 (needed to retaliate against crabs) and
1) give them some sort of a shield like behemoths or
2)give them more movement like 32 (similar to AF drones) so they can move before turtles