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DeletedUser5160
Guest
MUCH Better. I can only test this on Live though since I dont have Mantas on Beta. Mantas should be able to keep up with movement speed on Eels while tanking their shots.
Now what about CRABs vs Eels. I showed the numbers that reactive armor is mandatory against Eels else the CRAB will always be taking a range of 3-6 during their first turn. A CRAB cannot hit an Eel first.
DeletedUser8150
Guest
Better though i'm not sure fixed. Do we have any idea if we are going to have an extra unit like AF? Only we still have the manta barracks with +7 Att ie the same as the AF Dragon Drone Base. Obviously if the later (extra) barracks had +8 I could understand the +7 for the manta
On a slight sidestep. Is it just me or do we need to nudge the Devs to look again at the Champions. They have become irrelevant with the unit skills of later age units. Their slightly higher stats don't remotely compensate for the lack of the skill bonus
DeletedUser
Guest
I don't have any information on upcoming units at this time.
I am not aware that Champions are being looked at for rebalancing at this time.
I am not aware that Champions are being looked at for rebalancing at this time.
DeletedUser8150
Guest
Ok Thanks. Does seem a luke warm bonus. Higher pop demand/ essentially the same size but only the previous ages bonus :-(
DeletedUser
Guest
I will bring it up so the devs are aware of the general feelings about it.
DeletedUser5429
Guest
OF champions are good canon fodder for points in GvG.
Apart from that, though...
DeletedUser8376
Guest
Hi , great news about 3rd phase. ..just wondering will the goods produced from GB's etc move to next ERA? start producing ''The Future'' instead of Tomorrow? would be nice to move on with this as well....cheers
DeletedUser
Guest
As far as I know this won't happen until the next actual era beyond OF. I do not think it will happen in OF4 for example as it would be breaking away from the pattern of triggers GB's use to determine the goods produced. However I have not been told this specifically so I will try and get confirmation.
RedRed
Viceroy
This wouldn't make any sense in amid of an era...
(keep in mind that part 1/2/3/4 are just a development trick to relase things on existing words without leaving long time gaps; once the era is fully relased, a new word has the whole era available in the tech tree, as well as the players of lower eras in existing worlds)
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qaccy
Emperor
It's very possible...if they even simulate them at all. If they did, I feel like mantas would never have had the flying ability in the first place!
@Zarok Dai thanks for the announcement about the manta rebalancing. Why only 9 range instead of 10, though? I presume it's to keep them from retaliating against Surrogate Soldiers (who are boosted against light and have 10 range), but this means they can still be outranged by eels and I can't think of any other relevant unit that 10 range would allow them to retaliate against (they do still get outranged by Battle Fortresses and Behemoths, however). Time will tell if the defense increase and the rather substantial increase in fast bonuses will be enough to compensate for the fact that they'll be taking retaliation as well from an eel they approach in the bushes...as well as the fact that, although they're boosted against heavy units, the AF heavy units are also boosted against light units and feature either stronger armor (than crabs) or the ability to stealth...as well as enough range to avoid Contact completely.
This is a very interesting idea and would indeed allow it to handily deal with its boosted units, with the bonus of also being effective against the AF units below it (it's going to fall very short in this regard with only the Contact ability). However, I think power shot doesn't really make sense for the Manta from a thematical perspective. For the Rail Gun, you had this hulking monstrosity of a weapon that quite clearly was capable of firing devastating blasts of energy at its targets. This little machine modeled after a sea creature though? I'm not sure if it makes as much sense here.
HuscarlTW
Squire
It's very possible...if they even simulate them at all. If they did, I feel like mantas would never have had the flying ability in the first place!
@Zarok Dai thanks for the announcement about the manta rebalancing. Why only 9 range instead of 10, though? I presume it's to keep them from retaliating against Surrogate Soldiers (who are boosted against light and have 10 range), but this means they can still be outranged by eels and I can't think of any other relevant unit that 10 range would allow them to retaliate against (they do still get outranged by Battle Fortresses and Behemoths, however). Time will tell if the defense increase and the rather substantial increase in fast bonuses will be enough to compensate for the fact that they'll be taking retaliation as well from an eel they approach in the bushes...as well as the fact that, although they're boosted against heavy units, the AF heavy units are also boosted against light units and feature either stronger armor (than crabs) or the ability to stealth...as well as enough range to avoid Contact completely.
This is a very interesting idea and would indeed allow it to handily deal with its boosted units, with the bonus of also being effective against the AF units below it (it's going to fall very short in this regard with only the Contact ability). However, I think power shot doesn't really make sense for the Manta from a thematical perspective. For the Rail Gun, you had this hulking monstrosity of a weapon that quite clearly was capable of firing devastating blasts of energy at its targets. This little machine modeled after a sea creature though? I'm not sure if it makes as much sense here.
True, but my solution is intended to be more relevant to balance than theme.
As it is, though, mantas are worthless against units they are supposed to counter from earlier ages. Namely hover tanks, battle fortresses, and behemoths. Plus eels, as stated above.
DeletedUser8150
Guest
Zarok may know but I presume the devs have tools so they can easily see what units are being used to fight. So it seem that the devs are happy for us to contine to use Hover/Drones long after they should have ceased to be useful.
DeletedUser7779
Guest
Don't eels have a range of 10? So even with this rebalancing mantas won't be able to retaliate against them, nor hit them directly when they hide in bushes. With a movement of 24 vs eels' 35, eels will be able to kite them almost every turn unless terrain is very unfavorable. Kinda useless upgrade imo...at least in theory.
Looking forward to feedback from people who have tested them in battle. (sadly i cant test, only in CA on beta)
But I'm thinking if mantas remain the way there are ... at least GE will be easier for us
Looking forward to feedback from people who have tested them in battle. (sadly i cant test, only in CA on beta)
But I'm thinking if mantas remain the way there are ... at least GE will be easier for us
qaccy
Emperor
I do think theming is important to the developers, at least to a degree. In some cases abilities do seem to be there just for balance purposes (like Contact), but in others it seems more like it's because the ability 'fits' the unit. Of course it's all up to the developers in the end, but to me personally it'd be odd to give a Rail Gun's power to something so small.
Inno seems to have forgotten about Hover Tanks by now, though at any time that could be changed similar to what happened with Rail Guns (though that wasn't as bad as people wanted to make it out to be). It's quite true that they're still relevant today, though that's also in large part due to dumb AI for fast and light units. I feel like Mantas will probably be able to handle Behemoths in most cases but Battle Fortresses are definitely a weakness. It doesn't help that AF heavies are boosted against light units, either. This is unlikely to change, though, as the developers tend not to focus on cross-age balancing and only on units from within the same age.
Don't eels have a range of 10? So even with this rebalancing mantas won't be able to retaliate against them, nor hit them directly when they hide in bushes. With a movement of 24 vs eels' 35, eels will be able to kite them almost every turn unless terrain is very unfavorable. Kinda useless upgrade imo...at least in theory.
Looking forward to feedback from people who have tested them in battle. (sadly i cant test, only in CA on beta)
But I'm thinking if mantas remain the way there are ... at least GE will be easier for us
I think people might be using the term 'kite' incorrectly here. The only units that are possible to kite in the Future ages are Drone Swarms, Behemoths, and Turturrets. These are the only units with combined movement and attack ranges low enough that they'll be unable to pursue and attack certain units. For example, anything that can move more than 6 spaces per turn can easily avoid attack from a Drone Swarm, and any stealthed unit has nothing to fear from a Behemoth or Turturret. If a unit is able to reach another unit and attack it on its turn, that is NOT kiting. Eels don't have enough attack range to stay safe from a Manta, ergo they cannot 'kite' them. The best they can do is avoid retaliation from Contact.
However, I do agree that GE may become slightly easier with the Manta's addition, mainly because there won't be so many Dragon Drones flying around and telling us not to use artillery.
DeletedUser7378
Guest
My favorite thing about part 3? One step closer to part 4, because surely the new GB will come out by then, eh? When is OF part 4 scheduled to roll out? Fall? after/before fall event?
Thanks.
Thanks.
HuscarlTW
Squire
Behemoths outrange mantas. When a unit has contact, it is only good against other units with equal or less range. This is one reason why the TE light unit is so weak. It's also why anti aircraft does poorly vs combat drones, despite being boosted against them.
Anyway, I don't really see how unit abilities are themed. For example, what do turtles have to do with area of effect damage?
Setting that aside, giving power shot to a unit with 5 range isn't the same as giving it to a unit with 30 range. Rail guns were only powerful because they could kill everything in 2 hits without taking much damage.
DeletedUser7779
Guest
Power shot does make sense to me because mantas seem to have little chance against eels despite their boost. In that case the poison skill is useless though as enemy troops will be always 2 hit killed.
@qaccy : by kiting i meant the following. Eels have a movement of 35, mantas - 24 (which is 12 squares best case - if only moving in straight line on plains). Eels have a range of 10, so it's quite likely that they can move out of manta's movement range and shoot from distance without getting retaliation damage and without being reached. Especially if battle is played manually, and considering there are usually plenty of bushes on the battlefield, this can be used to eels' favor even if it means skipping a turn.
@qaccy : by kiting i meant the following. Eels have a movement of 35, mantas - 24 (which is 12 squares best case - if only moving in straight line on plains). Eels have a range of 10, so it's quite likely that they can move out of manta's movement range and shoot from distance without getting retaliation damage and without being reached. Especially if battle is played manually, and considering there are usually plenty of bushes on the battlefield, this can be used to eels' favor even if it means skipping a turn.
Andi47
Overlord
I agree: Like it is now, the Manta is a second version of the Sub cruiser - and a weaker one, because ist has lower range. Poison? Nevermind - if you want to win a battle in GE stage 3 or 4, you need to two-hit kill most of the opponent unit - our your units get two-hit-killed. Poison might give that extra-umph when after the second shot the (poisoned) enemy unit survives with only one hitpoint left - in any other cases the poison ability seems pointless to me.
On the other hand: Initially the Manta had the Flying ability, so it was designed to be used against artillery. Now the Flying was taken from the Manta, because the Turtle has bonus against the Manta, but can't hit a flying Manta.
So what is the new supposed purpose of the Manta? Against what unit should it work best? Let's see, what do we have:
* Sub Cruiser: Well, use Plasmas against them (previous era). Turtles also work
* Eel: If the deff has only few of them, use either Sub + rogues (the eels will be retaliated to death) or Plasma. If the deff has lots of them, use Crabs.
* Crabs. Use turtles. BOOM!
* Manta: use sub-cruisers
...And then there is battle #56 (Nr. 6 of stage 4 GE), which cannot be beaten by units - but only by insanely high GBs:
* Orangery level 80+: two or three crabs + rogues might work
* Zeus, Aachen, CDM all at level 80+: 1 drone + rogues might work (I have only read that - not sure whether this should be a TE combat drone or an AF dragon drone.)
--> we need a unit which can beat this one - a Manta having "Power Shot" might work, a Manta with current stats is just a weaker (and useless) version of the Sub Cruiser - it is even weaker as a Surrogat.
BTW: We didn't have a flying unit with can shoot with a range longer than 1 for ages. How about making the Manta with Poison, Flying and Powershot ability and change the bonus of the Turtle?
Or construct a second FAST unit for OF4, which has Flying and PowerShot.
DeletedUser7779
Guest
Hehe, what's the defense on that one? All lvl 4 is beatable with about 180% attack and no high Orangery.