Feedback [Feedback] - Oceanic Future Part 4

[podkap1970]

Sooo... when a unit behaves smart (attacking rogues first is typically a bad choice) it means it's buggy?

well when i'm in a fight, my side 1x cruisers 7 rogues
other side have 2 Cruisers and 1-2 Nautilus (plus some other units)
both enemy units (Cruisers and Nautilus) can reach my rogues in first round, Cruisers goes straight to my rogues and attack him, the Nautilus attacks my Cruisers which moved a little forward, instead of attacking the rogue too
this makes just no sense

Edit: so Nautilus is smart and the Cruisers are stupid ?

 

[DeletedUser7942]

well when i'm in a fight, my side 1x cruisers 7 rogues
other side have 2 Cruisers and 1-2 Nautilus (plus some other units)
both enemy units (Cruisers and Nautilus) can reach my rogues in first round, Cruisers goes straight to my rogues and attack him, the Nautilus attacks my Cruisers which moved a little forward, instead of attacking the rogue too
this makes just no sense

Edit: so Nautilus is smart and the Cruisers are stupid ?

Was this in PvP?

 

[podkap1970]

Was this in PvP?

it was in a GE fight today, forgot to write

 

[qaccy]

Just wanted to let everyone know the devs are aware of the feedback on the Kraken and are looking in to rebalancing it. When I know more details I will pass them on to everyone, thanks.

I'm going to quote this again because it seems everybody who commented afterward completely missed this post. lol

@Darkstar thanks for posting the Nautilus' stats, but I'm a bit disappointed after seeing them. First look tells me it's going to be fairly slow, like the sub, meaning it won't be able to reach artillery units a lot of the time on their first turn. Secondly, its terrain bonuses are much worse - houses and especially entrenchments are incredibly rare compared to plains, bushes, and forests. I don't think I ever see more than two entrenchments per battle when I'm doing GE and actually, do they even appear in the OF battlefield? Thirdly, while Force Field will probably help it survive more hits from its boosted units (other units will likely still take it out in two shots, especially in GE), not having Contact means it will also take longer to kill things due to not having the free retaliation attacks.

Overall, I'm not really seeing any situations where I'd use the Nautilus over Subs, but then I already don't use Subs that much to begin with (my opinion is that ranged units haven't been very useful since Contemporary, where they were perhaps TOO useful). Also, is it a coincidence that the 6th unit in both AF and OF have the Force Field ability? Just a random observation here.

 

[Bruce the Destroyer]

I also agree that Kraken looks great, and I like the first strike idea, but ultimately is a useless GB. I was so looking forward to a new and exciting GB

Where are the devs who created Future Era ? I want to play that game now. They clearly are not doing FoE AF/OF

I like GBs that give fighting bonus, like AO. I also like bonus GBs like SV. Cant we have something different please? There's so many ideas out there. We could have a GB that protects your city. Since tavern bonus and event buildings it's not unusual to be attacked by 150-400% attack. So Basils/Deal are useless at defending your city (like city shield for first X attacks). we could have a GB that prevents higher age players from attacking. or one that has a chance of reverse-plunder (you win something instead of losing something). A GB that increases production from goods buildings. there's no lack of ideas.

In PME, Cape was essential. In CE, Inno was. TE didnt have an essential GB, but DT is excellent for lower age players. In FE, Arc was. In AF, AO was. Where is the killer OF GB that everyone WILL build, and will buy OF goods to do so.

inno could ask us here - what do you think of this idea? we could all tell the devs that kraken is a useless GB before they commit to creating it. OK, they might rebalance it slightly, but they wont completely rethink the idea. is there such a thing as an alfa testing server ?

 

[DeletedUser5882]

The Kraken isn't a building, but a mythical sea creature.

Great buildings in earlier eras were 'real lfe' buildings so I believe that's what you are criticizing. My guess is, since we are in a completely unreal era, the devs had to come up with completely fictional buildings that would match the theme. So I am sure they too know it is a mythical creature normally.


About the features of the building; I agree with players here

Although I have not built it, from what I read it has a different version of what AO has but with a much more limited chance. AO bonus does not kill but it pretty much gets close. On the other hand it is permanent! That alone is enough for me to have negative feelings about the kraken.

The medal bonus is at a level that maybe only a beginner level player would find useful! It is like a joke that kind of hurts rather than makes you laugh.
I think I find 500-1000 medals through incidents only, I place 1 fp to a very low level building and get the 5th rank and still get around 100 medals... it is like giving 10 cents as bonus where the average income is 10K! You are designing this for OF players but the bonus is pretty much designed for 'stone age' players. You need to cancel this bonus without ever letting it go live in the main servers.

As for suggestions:

• About the attack bonus:
  • As another player mentioned earlier, you could make the first strike 100% and with the option of activating it at will. Make the number of use lower so that it can be used at really really critical battles like the 4th level GE map battles. OR
  • Cancel the number of battle limit and keep the % chance, slowly rising each level.
• As for the second bonus
  • Defensive kraken attacks: Player city defense system that is active pretty much the same rate as it is while attacking. At the same time it could function as guild defensive kraken for beach tiles that may cause 1 damage per attack to all units of the attacking army.

Please no money, supply or medal production... the production rates are way too low.
On the other hand, anything in % boost is always useful since it follows the rate of the players production amount or simply increases the efficiency of what is already there

 

[thephantom]

well when i'm in a fight, my side 1x cruisers 7 rogues
other side have 2 Cruisers and 1-2 Nautilus (plus some other units)
both enemy units (Cruisers and Nautilus) can reach my rogues in first round, Cruisers goes straight to my rogues and attack him, the Nautilus attacks my Cruisers which moved a little forward, instead of attacking the rogue too
this makes just no sense

Edit: so Nautilus is smart and the Cruisers are stupid ?

The AI's behavior isn't just "attack Rogues first" / "attack Non-Rogues first". It still takes into account the units present in the battle, particularly the units on its side (so it might take a more 'defensive' stance and stay back); the terrain (trying to make use of its bonuses); as well as its abilities (trying to make use of those too).

While general in battles (with the exception of the continent map) there is an inclination to attack Rogues first, the AI still takes all of the above into account when deciding what move to take. On top of my head you can easily observe different behavior with the Recon Raider, for example, depending if there's only Recon Raiders in that army (in which case they attack directly, as they have the movement to do so), or if it's mixed with other units such as Plasma Artilleries (in which case it stays back, despite their movement allowing them to attack and you having Rogues they can reach).

In that same way when there are two units it can reach, a Rogue and non-Rogue, those factors can still influence the decision of who it attacks.

 

[podkap1970]

yes i know that, it started more or less with the Exoskeleton Soldier, i have reported this last year, moved to a none bug, for same reason was given as you did now

but still the cruiser move straight to the rogue the Nautilus don't, both are range units
Cruiser decides to attack the rogue and die, he could also stay at the back for one more round, so he do not die first
sorry sounds little weird excuses

but ok, makes the attack sometimes little difficult

maybe its not a buggy unit, but a stupid unit for me

some units attack rogues first some don't, not a really good solution

Edit: we have bigger problems in this game, so nevermind

 

[xivarmy]

i actually find the 'stupid units' that hang back and defend are an interesting solution to 'balance' in the eras since FE. The fact that recon raiders and eels never charge forward for instance is the only thing that makes it ok in fights where you're NOT using rogues and want to splash a little artillery in - though it is really dumb that you get away with it when the logic is 'well a proper defender would charge forward with those 2 eels and kill 1 of my turtles before it can move therefore i should think twice about bringing ANY turtles - but once you do that you start moving towards i HAVE to bring rogues to absorb the hits and it really feels like they're trying to move away from that.

The fact that the nautilus exhibits that behavior probably means it's supposed to be able to hit artillery on turn 1 if it were smart - maybe its movement-type over rough terrain is better than the sub? Can't see that just from the stats.

 

[qaccy]

yes i know that, it started more or less with the Exoskeleton Soldier, i have reported this last year, moved to a none bug, for same reason was given as you did now

but still the cruiser move straight to the rogue the Nautilus don't, both are range units
Cruiser decides to attack the rogue and die, he could also stay at the back for one more round, so he do not die first
sorry sounds little weird excuses

but ok, makes the attack sometimes little difficult

maybe its not a buggy unit, but a stupid unit for me

some units attack rogues first some don't, not a really good solution

Edit: we have bigger problems in this game, so nevermind

Perhaps this is simply a case where, despite being a ranged unit, the Nautilus has AI matching a different unit type? To my knowledge, only light and fast units seem to have AI which permits them to move differently depending on the terrain and enemy/ally units present.

This talking about units reminded me of something I asked about a while ago, though. Would it be possible to finally have the 'speed' stat be visible in-game? More and more units are beginning to have a turn order that doesn't line up with their movement stat, so I think this could be very useful information. Currently, it can be confusing to a lot of players to see a Turturret (movement 10) move before a Battle Fortress (movement 20), and that's just one example of many!

 

[DeletedUser8492]

Do we really need more player avatars? If we MUST have more put the tech at the end of a path so that those that don't want more can by pass the tech.

 

[DeletedUser8150]

Sooo... when a unit behaves smart (attacking rogues first is typically a bad choice) it means it's buggy?

Thats a fair point Bryfft but your argument only works if we know that its supposed to be special and systematically ignores the rogues rather than thinking its a bug. I don't mind at one level if it does ignore all rogues (might be an interesting variable) call it the unit special skill and make it clear.

 

[Cardena]

Sooo... when a unit behaves smart (attacking rogues first is typically a bad choice) it means it's buggy?

Well it is a problematic behaviour. I bank on the opposing units to attack the rogues first in GE. I would not have any chance of winning otherwise, the bonus is much too high for me, especially in level 4.

 

[xivarmy]

Well it is a problematic behaviour. I bank on the opposing units to attack the rogues first in GE. I would not have any chance of winning otherwise, the bonus is much too high for me, especially in level 4.

Except it's already not the case since FE that you can reliably bank on that behavior. Exoskeletal soldiers, Recon Raiders, and Eels all have 'protect' AI where they won't go forward as far as they can, trying to stay close to the other types of units still alive - and as i mentioned earlier taking advantage of this is key to winning without relying on rogues. In the case of exos and recons you'd often leave them for last trying not to get so close that they'd finally charge. Eels are a bit more prone to charging on turn 2 anyways but it at least means your turtles get to fire before they start dying. BTW you still can use rogues with this behavior if you're so inclined - you just have to be careful about moving too far ahead of your rogues with your nonrogues.

 

[Medribradrion]

Kraken sounds like a terrible GB. First strike is ok as one of two good bonuses, on its own (medals are worthless) it is not enough even for a small GB.

I suggest replacing the medals with a 'gvg siege' bonus - if you sieged a sector then you get a 30-second timeout after the siege is broken in which opponents cannot replace def armies. The higher the GB level, the more such 'time-outs' you get.

 

[Cardena]

Except it's already not the case since FE that you can reliably bank on that behavior. Exoskeletal soldiers, Recon Raiders, and Eels all have 'protect' AI where they won't go forward as far as they can, trying to stay close to the other types of units still alive - and as i mentioned earlier taking advantage of this is key to winning without relying on rogues. In the case of exos and recons you'd often leave them for last trying not to get so close that they'd finally charge. Eels are a bit more prone to charging on turn 2 anyways but it at least means your turtles get to fire before they start dying. BTW you still can use rogues with this behavior if you're so inclined - you just have to be careful about moving too far ahead of your rogues with your nonrogues.

Really? I thought always that if some unit did not hit the rogues it were because the rogoues could not be hit at that moment.

 

[xivarmy]

Really? I thought always that if some unit did not hit the rogues it were because the rogoues could not be hit at that moment.

If you pay attention the ranges you'll see it's not always the case. Recon raiders are perhaps the most obvious example - they can always hit on the first turn, but they don't if there's other unit types in the army - and if you're careful they still won't on the second turn. It's how i used to handle most fights in AF using plasma and BF - ignore the fasts, don't advance too far and let them creep up, and just keep picking off stuff with artillery while the tanks shoot at stuff that's coming close like dragons.

 

[Cardena]

If you pay attention the ranges you'll see it's not always the case. Recon raiders are perhaps the most obvious example - they can always hit on the first turn, but they don't if there's other unit types in the army - and if you're careful they still won't on the second turn. It's how i used to handle most fights in AF using plasma and BF - ignore the fasts, don't advance too far and let them creep up, and just keep picking off stuff with artillery while the tanks shoot at stuff that's coming close like dragons.

Well, yes, I do not unterstand why recon raiders sometimes advance and sometimes not. They almost never hit on first turm in GE (I always have some rogoues in that case), but almost ever hit on first turn on the map of Continents (I almost never use rogoues there, but even with rogoues they advance there).

 

[qaccy]

@Cardena that's what xiv is explaining. Fast and light units' AI only advances if they're not paired with other slow units. The most obvious examples are battles that contain only fast units - they charge across immediately on their first turn and begin attacking your units. When paired with slow units like artillery or behemoths, however, they hang back substantially, often only moving 1 or 2 spaces or sometimes not at all. Presumably this is to ensure that your units that move forward to strike the slow units will enter the range of the fast units, who will then attack you in turn. In reality this just means these units can be exploited and rendered a non-threat in these battles, again as xiv pointed out.

 

[xivarmy]

Well, yes, I do not unterstand why recon raiders sometimes advance and sometimes not. They almost never hit on first turm in GE (I always have some rogoues in that case), but almost ever hit on first turn on the map of Continents (I almost never use rogoues there, but even with rogoues they advance there).

Continent is just different - it's best if you don't try to mix what you learn in GE with what you learn in continent at all.