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Discussion Guild Battlegrounds Watchtower and Siege Camp Ability Re-balance

A guild gets moved to Diamond where they find they can not fight. It takes a vacation but does get its 40 fights in allowing it to move down to platinum. Next league it does not have its 40 and is removed from GBG... This is the quickest way to reduce the size of Diamond.

It is not about moving up from copper or silver as guilds have found they need only 40 fights to keep active. Those leagues have many that do not finish one tile. Even the strongest sometimes just run all tiles around their home base up to almost done. Guilds have found they can hold up and not advance. That controls upward movement now. Number of active guilds on my mature worlds has not changed since this time last year. Interest in GBG has. It has fallen. GBG is a broken feature to weaker guilds. Bad rewards at the lower leagues. No reason to compete. Treasury costs pure insanity. It is much easier to just, in Silver, farm the 3-4 tiles at your base to almost done for the 207-276 fights watching the other guilds and closing only if you will stay in Silver.
At last Yekk has solved the GBG problem....
Have your guild stay in the league that fits, instead of trying to run with the Big Dogs....
If Your guild can't keep up, stop whining and demote Yourselves to a league that fits....
 

xivarmy

Overlord
Perk Creator
A guild gets moved to Diamond where they find they can not fight. It takes a vacation but does get its 40 fights in allowing it to move down to platinum. Next league it does not have its 40 and is removed from GBG... This is the quickest way to reduce the size of Diamond.

It is not about moving up from copper or silver as guilds have found they need only 40 fights to keep active. Those leagues have many that do not finish one tile. Even the strongest sometimes just run all tiles around their home base up to almost done. Guilds have found they can hold up and not advance. That controls upward movement now. Number of active guilds on my mature worlds has not changed since this time last year. Interest in GBG has. It has fallen. GBG is a broken feature to weaker guilds. Bad rewards at the lower leagues. No reason to compete. Treasury costs pure insanity. It is much easier to just, in Silver, farm the 3-4 tiles at your base to almost done for the 207-276 fights watching the other guilds and closing only if you will stay in Silver.
Your system doesn't "keep the guilds down" - if everyone's doing that in Silver, *everyone* moves up (The 8-way tie at 0 has everyone advance as 1st if it happens that everyone did their thing without taking a sector).

If some people aren't stopping short of taking then *someone* still moves up, so the points are secure. It's also not really all that common from what I've seen.

It's not about what happens to a specific guild, but the count of guilds. There is no common behavior where guilds can get together and decide to shrink diamond - there's artificial behaviors to further inflate diamond (lots of little guilds doing the n-way tie at zero would pump many *more* points into the system for instance! If you say took 40 1-man guilds committed to starting that the same week, they'd find themselves in the same group often, and some of em might even make it to diamond without ever taking a sector because of that! But even if they don't make it that far, every week that 2+ of them wind up in the same group, they pump more points into the system by having an active-guild-tie.

As for "staying where one belongs", that takes two guilds - you move the fighters to the guild in the division you want to be in, while the other guild loses the round doing nothing. Actually tried that for a bit. Wasn't worth the headache - didn't have the people who wanted the easy fights doing more, just more work for me. Again though this does not shrink diamond - because it's just an extra guild as far as the steady state is concerned.

The best one could do if one wanted to be a "force for shrinking diamond" is to create a copper guild - fight like the devil for 1st every season to high platinum or diamond, and disband before your high platinum or diamond season begins so your points gathered vanish rather than support diamond. And create another copper guild, repeat. But who would want to do the work on that?

---

As for "guild quits in platinum", if that's what's happening then yes that would show in diamond sooner. But what if for a few seasons after the drop to platinum they half-heartedly keep doing at least their 40 and drop to gold. or maybe silver. before going inactive and getting removed; then they've returned most of their points to the system and their absence will take many seasons to propagate up in terms of what the change to the steady state would be. I'm not sure anyone has asserted "how" the guilds that have quit quit.
 

Yekk

Regent
Your system doesn't "keep the guilds down" - if everyone's doing that in Silver, *everyone* moves up (The 8-way tie at 0 has everyone advance as 1st if it happens that everyone did their thing without taking a sector).

If some people aren't stopping short of taking then *someone* still moves up, so the points are secure. It's also not really all that common from what I've seen.

It's not about what happens to a specific guild, but the count of guilds. There is no common behavior where guilds can get together and decide to shrink diamond - there's artificial behaviors to further inflate diamond (lots of little guilds doing the n-way tie at zero would pump many *more* points into the system for instance! If you say took 40 1-man guilds committed to starting that the same week, they'd find themselves in the same group often, and some of em might even make it to diamond without ever taking a sector because of that! But even if they don't make it that far, every week that 2+ of them wind up in the same group, they pump more points into the system by having an active-guild-tie.

As for "staying where one belongs", that takes two guilds - you move the fighters to the guild in the division you want to be in, while the other guild loses the round doing nothing. Actually tried that for a bit. Wasn't worth the headache - didn't have the people who wanted the easy fights doing more, just more work for me. Again though this does not shrink diamond - because it's just an extra guild as far as the steady state is concerned.

The best one could do if one wanted to be a "force for shrinking diamond" is to create a copper guild - fight like the devil for 1st every season to high platinum or diamond, and disband before your high platinum or diamond season begins so your points gathered vanish rather than support diamond. And create another copper guild, repeat. But who would want to do the work on that?

---

As for "guild quits in platinum", if that's what's happening then yes that would show in diamond sooner. But what if for a few seasons after the drop to platinum they half-heartedly keep doing at least their 40 and drop to gold. or maybe silver. before going inactive and getting removed; then they've returned most of their points to the system and their absence will take many seasons to propagate up in terms of what the change to the steady state would be. I'm not sure anyone has asserted "how" the guilds that have quit quit.
That guild that does not do 40 in Platinum will not be tied with the others that did. That guild is removed and that is happening much more often now. If they stay out of the next league they drop again. I have three in one of my Silver leagues that have no fights yet. I will take third. Next league I have room in that guild to take third again but if no other guilds fights I may sit that league out. I will not move up. I will not be tied for first. I will lose points keeping me in Silver. I have yet to see no guilds capping a tile. Most of the time I see 3-4. If they have cap room they can stay in Silver. If they do not they sit and take 4th-5th or lower.
 

xivarmy

Overlord
Perk Creator
That guild that does not do 40 in Platinum will not be tied with the others that did. That guild is removed and that is happening much more often now. If they stay out of the next league they drop again. I have three in one of my Silver leagues that have no fights yet. I will take third. Next league I have room in that guild to take third again but if no other guilds fights I may sit that league out. I will not move up. I will not be tied for first. I will lose points keeping me in Silver. I have yet to see no guilds capping a tile. Most of the time I see 3-4. If they have cap room they can stay in Silver. If they do not they sit and take 4th-5th or lower.
Yes there's always some guilds not capping a single tile in copper and silver - and has been from the start. But a proportion of those are also not doing the 40 fights and therefore get automatic-last instead of tied-whatever. So it kinda balances out at that point unless there's a massive wave of guilds *committed* to being active but not taking a tile all the way up.

If it became a problem it'd be as simple as them changing the "active" requirement to VP > 0 instead of advances >= 40. Since the requirement to be active isn't even officially stated anywhere in game they could easily get away with it i think.
 

drakenridder

Overlord
Perk Creator
I don't think this changes are targeted to reduce the diamond league guilds. Much rather the 0-low-attrition. If they wanted to reshape the leagues and reduce diamond guilds, they could easily do such with top X% guilds per lp. Similar to some events rewarding the top X% with rewards, the better performance the greater the spoils. Eg:
Top 5% - diamond
Top 5%-15% platina
Top 15%-30% gold
Top 30%-50% silver
<50% bronze
This is just an example of how they could reducing guilds in leagues dynamically. If that was their aim, which it was more than likely not.
 

CrashBoom

Legend
or they could just change the points at the end (all leagues):

for example: (8 guilds league)
1: 125
2: 75
3: 25
4: 0
5: -25
6: -75
7: -125
8: -175

that is a minimal change

for the first 4 in diamond it will change nothing (stay at 1000 LP)
the lower 4 will drop more than they can gain in the following season (in total -175 LP)

and currently the last could win platinum and be back to 1000 LP in one season
with that they will be lower in points (950) and would need 2 season to reach 1000 LP again
 

Yekk

Regent
Yes there's always some guilds not capping a single tile in copper and silver - and has been from the start. But a proportion of those are also not doing the 40 fights and therefore get automatic-last instead of tied-whatever. So it kinda balances out at that point unless there's a massive wave of guilds *committed* to being active but not taking a tile all the way up.

If it became a problem it'd be as simple as them changing the "active" requirement to VP > 0 instead of advances >= 40. Since the requirement to be active isn't even officially stated anywhere in game they could easily get away with it i think.
There are less guilds doing GBG...Even though the number of active guilds remains the same as I said earlier. Point Set Match

I wonder if live sees the nerf as "vaporware"? Been 5 months for a feature that has no definitive testing needed. If testing was for/if players would stop using GBG or quit the game I fear we have found that out.
 
There are less guilds doing GBG...Even though the number of active guilds remains the same as I said earlier. Point Set Match

I wonder if live sees the nerf as "vaporware"? Been 5 months for a feature that has no definitive testing needed. If testing was for/if players would stop using GBG or quit the game I fear we have found that out.
How did you come by this information?
 

DEADP00L

Emperor
Perk Creator
How did you come by this information?
It's math!
There are a lot of guilds that lose their best fighters who regroup in a dozen guilds. These "vampirized" guilds lose activity and often vegetate in Silver or Copper before leaving GbG.

But as usual, we offer solutions (more or less viable) without any feedback from Innogames.
Even this nerf that will be tested for at least 7 months makes no sense. Where it gives satisfaction and must be installed directly, or it does not meet the expectations of the developers and another approach must be taken.
 
It's math!
There are a lot of guilds that lose their best fighters who regroup in a dozen guilds. These "vampirized" guilds lose activity and often vegetate in Silver or Copper before leaving GbG.
Math only works with data and my question goes to where is the data? AFAIK, the only way to know that a guild has stopped participating in GBG is a review of the trophy count after each season. To say that fewer guilds are participation necessarily means that someone has tabulated a timeseries of this information. I find this highly doubtful.
 

xivarmy

Overlord
Perk Creator
There are less guilds doing GBG...Even though the number of active guilds remains the same as I said earlier. Point Set Match

I wonder if live sees the nerf as "vaporware"? Been 5 months for a feature that has no definitive testing needed. If testing was for/if players would stop using GBG or quit the game I fear we have found that out.
I don't know what you think you just won? I don't think we were disagreeing on less guilds must be doing GBG for there to be less diamond guilds. That was after all my original thesis in this recent chain of replies?

But on whether the trend for less guilds doing GBG may have preceded the change, with less guilds in diamond being a delayed reaction.

And I doubt live is reacting to the beta nerf. Most players I've seen on live that are opposed just "hope it doesn't come" or even "enjoy it while they can".

Most of the smaller guilds (which are probably the bulk of ones that disappeared likely - just because they're closer to going inactive anyways only requiring 1 or 2 players to quit/move to a more active guild) are likely oblivious that there even is a nerf in testing. While it may seem strange to not have "news from beta" to a heavily active player, the bulk of players in FoE are extremely casual.

Which isn't to say there isn't someone somewhere who's overreacted and quit early on live for a change that may never make it there. But such a player was probably close to quitting anyways. And is unlikely to compose a large enough portion of the playerbase to cause this kind of movement.
 
simple.. I keep old crawler info.

you could try to do the same
Ok, you archived some historical data. What do you compare it to? I know of no data, supplied by INNO, that deals with the number of guilds that participate in GBG. Review of a guild's GBG trophies reveals how many times they participated in a particular GBG league and how many times the won the league but there is no timestamp on this information. Someone would have to be entering this data, every season for every guild, to be able to tell if guild participation is declining. Claims that fewer guilds are participating is just speculation.
 

Yekk

Regent
Ok, you archived some historical data. What do you compare it to? I know of no data, supplied by INNO, that deals with the number of guilds that participate in GBG. Review of a guild's GBG trophies reveals how many times they participated in a particular GBG league and how many times the won the league but there is no timestamp on this information. Someone would have to be entering this data, every season for every guild, to be able to tell if guild participation is declining. Claims that fewer guilds are participating is just speculation.
ROFL today's. The point is there is the same number of guilds one year ago as now and less diamond guilds which only could happen if guilds are not doing GBG either on a part time basis by using the do less than 40 fights method I put or just stopped GBG completely. Now if you have a realistic third way I am all ears...
 
ROFL today's. The point is there is the same number of guilds one year ago as now and less diamond guilds which only could happen if guilds are not doing GBG either on a part time basis by using the do less than 40 fights method I put or just stopped GBG completely. Now if you have a realistic third way I am all ears...
Same number of guilds but fewer in Diamond can only happen if guilds are not doing GBG eh? How about two diamond guilds that have been struggling with D1K decide to merge, meanwhile player "Newton the Noob" decides to start his own guild. Result, same number of guilds, one fewer Diamond guild.
 

Yekk

Regent
Same number of guilds but fewer in Diamond can only happen if guilds are not doing GBG eh? How about two diamond guilds that have been struggling with D1K decide to merge, meanwhile player "Newton the Noob" decides to start his own guild. Result, same number of guilds, one fewer Diamond guild.
First loses 1/2 their treasuries and since they could not compete before still can't. Number of players is a small part of GBG as treasury is much more important. The smaller of the merged normally still exists and as I said may choose to stop doing GBG.

Second has no treasury. As Xi states in these cases the number in D would still be the same. Your problem is it is not.
 

Yekk

Regent
But back to the nerf. This is the first season the 1K my guild is in was balanced. 6 of the 8 guilds are competitive. Each a 1K guild with the treasury and players to take and to then build on tiles. It is the first league I have kind of enjoyed since the nerf started. It is what I envision for GBG and I believe what most players would see as fun. My guild will be close to 60K in total fights by the end tonight. 2nd-6th will see decent fight numbers also. 22 players have 1000 or more encounters with that number most likely to be 25 by the end. Center has changed hands many times with each of the top 4 owning it. Guilds on live would accept this type change gleefully.
@Juber
 

-Alin-

Emperor
But back to the nerf. This is the first season the 1K my guild is in was balanced. 6 of the 8 guilds are competitive. Each a 1K guild with the treasury and players to take and to then build on tiles. It is the first league I have kind of enjoyed since the nerf started. It is what I envision for GBG and I believe what most players would see as fun. My guild will be close to 60K in total fights by the end tonight. 2nd-6th will see decent fight numbers also. 22 players have 1000 or more encounters with that number most likely to be 25 by the end. Center has changed hands many times with each of the top 4 owning it. Guilds on live would accept this type change gleefully.
@Juber

Your guild is our guild actually. ;)

Screenshot_20221114-135236_1_80.jpg
Screenshot_20221114-141901-792.jpg

Nice round indeed, not sustainable in long time run, went even on 140 attrition again to secure sectors during the night, spent also lots of goods, similar as other guildies just to maintain our position.
 
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Sibel

Merchant
Why not test the possibility for guilds to decline promotion to the next higher league, e.g. until Tuesday, or the same time limit for applying to take part at the Copper League? Very often, I notice guilds who fight 159 battels on outer provinces, but they never take the province, just to make sure that they get back to the lower league. At the moment, there are by far too many guilds in Diamond League who are too weak. A faster attrition with the nerf will not change much. If the top guilds have their chessboard pattern, these can concentrate on locking out the weaker guilds, who will not be able to keep up with the speed, no matter if the nerf is implemented or not.
 
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