Discussion Guild Battlegrounds Watchtower and Siege Camp Ability Re-balance

[DEADP00L]

Of all the suggestions I've read about GbGs, many lack real thought.

Create a league above diamond, will only postpone the problem, without limiting the ups and downs of leagues.

To say that it is necessary to go down from 3rd to 8th in a lower league, will only make the upper leagues disappear by depopulation, without foreseeing rises in leagues which are already too facilitated.

It is necessary to restore importance to the classification with only the first place which would maintain the guild in its league to avoid the continual agreements between the 2 strongest to the detriment of the guilds which do not want to reach the top.

Doing GbG with diferent leagues without defining a precise number of guilds in each league is the biggest mistake of innogames.
A GbG of 6 guilds (and not 7 or 8) composed of the winner of the previous diamond league and 5 guild winners of the previous platinum league would generate more "battles" and more balance.
From the GOLD league and below, the top 2 would go up and the bottom 4 would go down.
But it would be necessary to define a number of guilds in platinum league 5 times greater than the number of guilds in diamond league (4 times more from gold) and no longer take into account league points!

There we would have a real championship where if 2 guilds help each other one would be penalized at the next GbG. The battle for first place would finally have a valid justification.

In an average live world, where there are around 400 active guilds, 2 groups of 6 guilds in diamond (12 guild) + 10 groups of 6 guilds in platinum (60 guild) + 40 groups of 6 guilds in gold (240 guild ) + the rest in Silver league and keep the copper league only for the first time in GbG of any new guild.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Of all the suggestions I've read about GbGs, many lack real thought.

Create a league above diamond, will only postpone the problem, without limiting the ups and downs of leagues.

To say that it is necessary to go down from 3rd to 8th in a lower league, will only make the upper leagues disappear by depopulation, without foreseeing rises in leagues which are already too facilitated.

It is necessary to restore importance to the classification with only the first place which would maintain the guild in its league to avoid the continual agreements between the 2 strongest to the detriment of the guilds which do not want to reach the top.

Doing GbG with diferent leagues without defining a precise number of guilds in each league is the biggest mistake of innogames.
A GbG of 6 guilds (and not 7 or 8) composed of the winner of the previous diamond league and 5 guild winners of the previous platinum league would generate more "battles" and more balance.
From the GOLD league and below, the top 2 would go up and the bottom 4 would go down.
But it would be necessary to define a number of guilds in platinum league 5 times greater than the number of guilds in diamond league (4 times more from gold) and no longer take into account league points!

There we would have a real championship where if 2 guilds help each other one would be penalized at the next GbG. The battle for first place would finally have a valid justification.

In an average live world, where there are around 400 active guilds, 2 groups of 6 guilds in diamond (12 guild) + 10 groups of 6 guilds in platinum (60 guild) + 40 groups of 6 guilds in gold (240 guild ) + the rest in Silver league and keep the copper league only for the first time in GbG of any new guild.

You should model your suggestion. As I understand it, Diamond league season one is 12 battlefields each with 1 Diamond guild plus 5 Platinum guilds. Concurrently, Platinum League season one is what? 12 battlefields with 1 Platinum guild plus 5 Gold? If so, 72 Platinum guilds are needed. At the conclusion of season 1 all but the 12 Diamond guild winners move down to Platinum to be replaced by the winners of the previous Platinum season but there's only 12 of them when 60 are required. I'm probably just not understanding what you are talking about but the math doesn't appear to work.

 

[Yekk]

Of all the suggestions I've read about GbGs, many lack real thought.

Create a league above diamond, will only postpone the problem, without limiting the ups and downs of leagues.

I hate the word leagues. It was misused by Inno. For leagues to work competent limits must be done. Inno just did artificial ones.

Win a league and go up 175 VP. That broke the leagues. Gave everyone access to diamond. Incredibility poor game design.

You are correct that just adding a league does nothing over time. BUT if the cap is removed that problem goes away. Winners float to the top. Competition is added. Losing has consequences. If added to the nerf we would have a playable even matched GBG in most leagues top to bottom.

 

[DEADP00L]

I'm probably just not understanding what you are talking about but the math doesn't appear to work.

I had previously given another mode of distribution of guilds (in the subject that everyone can see) but that implied that the first 2 could still be arranged between them:

For the leagues I have already proposed this solution which was not retained by the community:

- 6 Guilds maximum per group
- the Diamond league made up of 4 groups of 6 guilds (i.e. 24 guilds)
- the Platinum league made up of 8 groups of 6 guilds (i.e. 48 guilds)
- the Gold league made up of 16 groups of 6 guilds (i.e. 96 guilds)
- the Silver league made up of 32 groups of 6 guilds (i.e. 192 guilds)
- the Copper league composed of groups of 6 guilds for the rest of the active guilds.
- at each GbG, the last 2 guilds (5th and 6th) descend from the league.
- at each GbG, only the first guild moves up the league.

Thus 360 guilds are divided into leagues from Diamonds to Silver.
The LP were used initially but they demonstrate the limit of the system.

we could discuss it to adapt the principle so that only the first guild remains in the league and avoid eternal collusion, but a subject where we cannot therefore discuss suggestions does not seem relevant to me.

Admittedly, this avoids drowning ideas in a flow of interventions without argument, but above all it lightens the moderator's work of deleting unnecessary interventions... which in the end harms the discussion and therefore the evolution of incomplete ideas.

 

[Owl II]

There is an "Ideas" section. Does it not meet your requirements?

 

[DEADP00L]

There is an "Ideas" section. Does it not meet your requirements?

No, because it goes directly into the DNSL!
Since it drastically changes part of the game.

 

[Owl II]

But then it's just chatter anyway

 

[xivarmy]

Just a fuzzy point of data. Someone asked me to look at what their group might be this round on one of the live servers. The number of guilds in diamond has shrunk since I last did this. Now one way to look at this is "good, it should" - but on a broader basis the reason for this shrinking has to be literally 100 or so guilds disappearing from the matches entirely through the lower ranks such that not as many diamond guilds could be supported any more. Not taking it easy, but going inactive entirely and not re-enrolling. This could be the trend they're worried about?

 

[jovada]

And meanwhile today on live server , is it so difficult to give equal slots everywhere ??

 

[Owl II]

We have 2 strong opponents this season in my living world. One of them has tiles with no slots around. They are lucky, no one claims their territory

 

[Yekk]

Just a fuzzy point of data. Someone asked me to look at what their group might be this round on one of the live servers. The number of guilds in diamond has shrunk since I last did this. Now one way to look at this is "good, it should" - but on a broader basis the reason for this shrinking has to be literally 100 or so guilds disappearing from the matches entirely through the lower ranks such that not as many diamond guilds could be supported any more. Not taking it easy, but going inactive entirely and not re-enrolling. This could be the trend they're worried about?

Number is down on my main worlds also. This trend though is not a prior event to the nerf. Up to the nerf the number of guilds was still increasing in diamond.

 

[xivarmy]

Number is down on my main worlds also. This trend though is not a prior event to the nerf. Up to the nerf the number of guilds was still increasing in diamond.

It takes time for a trend of "less total guilds participating" to become visible as "lower number of diamond guilds". And it seems unlikely that you'd get anticipatory reaction on this scale for a nerf that isn't even confirmed to go live yet?

 

[Yekk]

It takes time for a trend of "less total guilds participating" to become visible as "lower number of diamond guilds". And it seems unlikely that you'd get anticipatory reaction on this scale for a nerf that isn't even confirmed to go live yet?

actually no, that is wrong. if guilds quit the number would drop very quickly. do the math

 

[xivarmy]

actually no, that is wrong. if guilds quit the number would drop very quickly. do the math

I have. It can take up to 1-2 years for a given number of guilds to reach a true steady state (why diamond kept growing and growing for so long).

It would depend on where exactly the guilds that disappeared disappeared from. i.e. if 50 high-platinum guilds disband, yes that'd be visible the next season in diamond. If 50 gold guilds disband, it'd be at least 3 seasons to even start to propagate up. (The next season low platinum would see a notable impact but not quite as big as 50 going away, the one after that high platinum would see a notable impact but even lower in magnitude, and the season after that you might see 1 or so guilds missing in diamond). It'd probably be about 4-6 months for the full 8 or so shrinkage that 50 missing would bring about.

 

[Yekk]

I have. It can take up to 1-2 years for a given number of guilds to reach a true steady state (why diamond kept growing and growing for so long).

It would depend on where exactly the guilds that disappeared disappeared from. i.e. if 50 high-platinum guilds disband, yes that'd be visible the next season in diamond. If 50 gold guilds disband, it'd be at least 3 seasons to even start to propagate up. (The next season low platinum would see a notable impact but not quite as big as 50 going away, the one after that high platinum would see a notable impact but even lower in magnitude, and the season after that you might see 1 or so guilds missing in diamond). It'd probably be about 4-6 months for the full 8 or so shrinkage that 50 missing would bring about.

give you a hint think down not up...

 

[Owl II]

I'm not ready to judge all the worlds, I only know about beta and my main world. The number of diamond guilds reached 100, +-5, by August 2020 and has been in this position ever since. One season we see two or three guilds less, the next more. We have 100 diamond guilds on beta right now. There were 97 a couple of seasons ago. Maybe we'll see 95 or 102 next season.

The complete passage from copper to diamond takes 2-3 months (depending on how lucky you are with the number of participants in the group). The initial stabilization took a little longer because the guilds had to squeeze through the narrow bottleneck of one diamond group. In addition, the starting distribution by league was based on objective factors. But then all the dead souls were included in the equation. Which led to the overflow of the diamond league with everything that alive at least a little. The movement in the opposite direction will not contain such artificial restrictions and would not take so much time.

Perhaps the number of guilds in the diamond league will decrease if the total number of guilds is reduced. But nerf is not the thing that led to reduce the total number of guilds. We were convinced of this on beta. It will work differently on live servers, I'm sure. But surely this will not affect the total number of guilds in any way. So, the distribution by league will not change.

 

[xivarmy]

give you a hint think down not up...

Yes guilds go down, and guilds go up to replace them. In steady state this equals. But diamond only directly depends on the number of guilds in high platinum, so it has to wait til those have gone down in order for it to go down. Hence if the guilds that vanish are more than 1 season away from diamond, there's a lag before you start to see a difference at all - and an even longer lag before you see the full difference. If you take the missing guilds from copper instead it'll be months til you see anything. And a year+ until you see the full difference (the same as on a new server when everyone starts at copper it takes well over a year before diamond is as big as it'll get).

 

[Demeter7]

Maybe Inno could add up the player points of all players in a guild, and group the guilds on a map in each league accordingly. And also determine the number of guilds on the map by the the total player points. Like 4 per map for guilds with the highest total player points. Then 5, 6, 7, 8 accordingly.
So then the guilds in Diamond league with the highest player points would be playing against each other, and the guilds with the lowest total player points would be playing against each other.

 

[Owl II]

Yes guilds go down, and guilds go up to replace them. In steady state this equals. But diamond only directly depends on the number of guilds in high platinum, so it has to wait til those have gone down in order for it to go down. Hence if the guilds that vanish are more than 1 season away from diamond, there's a lag before you start to see a difference at all - and an even longer lag before you see the full difference. If you take the missing guilds from copper instead it'll be months til you see anything. And a year+ until you see the full difference (the same as on a new server when everyone starts at copper it takes well over a year before diamond is as big as it'll get).

I don't know how you can compare the new worlds with the old ones. It probably takes the new world 5 or 10 years to get with the old ones. But most likely it is impossible. Our last world opened a year ago. There are 260 live guilds now. I mean guilds that have a LP greater than 0 at the moment. The Diamond League in it consists of 20 guilds. For comparison: there are 770 such guilds on beta. There are 840 such guilds in my living world.

 

[Yekk]

Yes guilds go down, and guilds go up to replace them. In steady state this equals. But diamond only directly depends on the number of guilds in high platinum, so it has to wait til those have gone down in order for it to go down. Hence if the guilds that vanish are more than 1 season away from diamond, there's a lag before you start to see a difference at all - and an even longer lag before you see the full difference. If you take the missing guilds from copper instead it'll be months til you see anything. And a year+ until you see the full difference (the same as on a new server when everyone starts at copper it takes well over a year before diamond is as big as it'll get).

A guild gets moved to Diamond where they find they can not fight. It takes a vacation but does get its 40 fights in allowing it to move down to platinum. Next league it does not have its 40 and is removed from GBG... This is the quickest way to reduce the size of Diamond.

It is not about moving up from copper or silver as guilds have found they need only 40 fights to keep active. Those leagues have many that do not finish one tile. Even the strongest sometimes just run all tiles around their home base up to almost done. Guilds have found they can hold up and not advance. That controls upward movement now. Number of active guilds on my mature worlds has not changed since this time last year. Interest in GBG has. It has fallen. GBG is a broken feature to weaker guilds. Bad rewards at the lower leagues. No reason to compete. Treasury costs pure insanity. It is much easier to just, in Silver, farm the 3-4 tiles at your base to almost done for the 207-276 fights watching the other guilds and closing only if you will stay in Silver.