Discussion General Discussions

[CrashBoom]

But with software that "sucks up" the data, you can easily make your own Foe Helper.

but if the helper would be forbidden that program would also be illegal

That's what I did before FOE Helper was officially tolerated by Innogames.

so at that time if you would have been detected by innogames they could have banned your for that

My own homemade software tells me how much to put for a snip just as it tells me which of the finished productions have diamonds or FPs.

and put a little diamond symbol directly over the building in your city ?
currently still legal ?

and what if the Helper would do that ?
will then InnoGames still tolerate that tool ?

 

[Sl8yer]

The game runs on different platforms which - while being similar - are not exactly the same. @DEADP00L already mentioned GvG as the most glaring "advantage" for PC players; the ability to play the game from anywhere and at any time is the most glaring example for mobile players.
If one restricts oneself to only one of the options to play the game you will have to live with the respective disadvantages.

All those advantages or disadvantages are brought to you by Inno. Helper isn't. Inno forbids the use of 3rd party software. How hard is that to understrand?

The question then becomes what should be considered "unfair".
The helper is - theoretically - available to every player and as such I personally do not consider it to be unfair as long as Inno is fine with the features it provides.

No, the question becomes what is allowed and what not.

Should the use of excel be banned as well since it is an external software that does calculations for you?
And should you be banned from using a calculator?
Or pen and paper?

That's up to Inno. If they do they should enforce it and not turn a blind eye.

 

[Sl8yer]

That's what I did before FOE Helper was officially tolerated by Innogames.

Can you show where they made that statement?

 

[CrashBoom]

Can you show where they made that statement?

is the comunication with the programers and their adjustments to the demands a statement ?

Inno checked it and said what should be removed so it can still be used

After a recent evaluation of the FoE Helper by InnoGames, we were asked to change the way some features work with the game. Due to the big popularity of our expansion (over 80,000 installations) we are aware of our responsibility for the community and will of course meet these requests to ensure a positive gaming experience for all players.

https://discuss.foe-helper.com/d/355-anderungen-am-foe-helfer-changes-to-the-foe-helper

 

[Sl8yer]

is the comunication with the programers and their adjustments to the demands a statement ?

Inno checked it and said what should be removed so it can still be used

http://[URL]https://discuss.foe-helper.com/d/355-anderungen-am-foe-helfer-changes-to-the-foe-helper

[/URL]

That is not an official statement from Innogames.

These are

Avoid Use Of Third-Party Software

Currently, there are many third-party resources that are available to players. However, these are not produced by InnoGames, and we do not recommend their use.

One of the main reasons for this, is that use of third-party software has proven to cause login issues, as well as technical issues. Forge of Empires is a game ongoing in development, and we develop based on the conditions of normal players that use the first-hand services we provide. This can mean, if you have third-party software installed, that you may encounter technical complications a player without these will not.

Additionally, and most notably, use of third-party software could be considered a breach of our terms and conditions. We reserve the right to suspend any account that we detect using this software.

Certainly, if you would like to avoid potentially being banned — or encountering technical complications that could hamper your experience — we would avoid installing any third-party Forge of Empires software.

https://forum.beta.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/how-to-ensure-your-online-safety.15129/

6) Bots and scripts
It is strictly forbidden to use bots or scripts.
Examples:
- It is strictly forbidden to use bots or scripts that automatically collect your resources.
- It is not allowed to use click-bots or scripts that minimize your manual clicks.
- You may not use programs that mimic premium features or provide an unfair advantage.

https://zz0.forgeofempires.com/page/the_game/rules/

Art. 11 Safety, cheating​

1. 11.3 The use of software which allows data mining or that in any other way collects information associated with the Games is prohibited.

https://legal.innogames.com/portal/zz/agb#section11


Nowhere do they make an exception to Helper. The creator of Helper does.

 

[CrashBoom]

That is not an official statement from Innogames.

then the last official statement was
"use 3rd party tools at your own risks"
(including being banned)

 

[Sl8yer]

Where to draw the line then?

• FoEHelper
• Online Arc Calculator
• Excel
• Calculator
• Pen and paper
• Calculations in your head

You draw the line at Helper. Of those metioned it is the only one that automattically collects info about the game, which is prohibited according to the Terms & Conditions.

 

[Deleted User - 57457]

Pick one from the list.
Usually you have to pick a building and pick a level.

Point is: The only thing the helper does to further help you is to know which building and which level you want calculated and what is already invested in it.
Please don't get me wrong, I agree that it was/is harder to do it in excel or in your head but that doesn't make it unfair.

If Inno thinks that a tool is fine to use than it is fine to use.

Arc calculator is much like excel. Just made online available. It's like a player building a spreadsheet in excel with the same capabilities and making it available to the public. In principle you can make in excel a source tab. In which the data of all GB's are stored. Although for performance and file size this would be impractical. Then in excel it's possible to write formulas seeking and collecting the requested data. For example: needed fps for next level and contribution rewards. It could easily calculate everything the arc calculator does. It's basically an advanced calculator. Similar to such you must insert manually the numbers. Then it does the math for you, like any ordinary calculator does.
A fully automated system however, goes further. It inserts the data itself and process it automatically. The key difference is that the system inserts the numbers into the "calculator" on its own. While manually a human operator is inserting the numbers into the "calculator".

 

[outoftheline]

- You may not use programs that mimic premium features or provide an unfair advantage.

yeah. and they decide what that is.

i am part of the dev team of the foe helper and they told us what to remove and such. for example: plunder helper and negotiation helper in GBG. the plunder helper gave an unfair advantage, because at the time you could see the productions of your neighbours and the negotiation helper in GBG made them much faster, leading to an advantage.
of course they won't ever say that foe helper is allowed, because we change it and add features etc. and they should not have to keep track of what we're doing all the time.
however, since the removal of some features, we are careful on what to put in and turned down a lot of requests since then.

and i just want to mention that there are other tools out there that still show things we removed a long time ago.
not talking about bots and automation, just other tools.

 

[CrashBoom]

yeah. and they decide what that is.

and currently the FoeHelper is tolerated / not illegal
and IF they ever decide to change that I hope they inform the players about that before they start banning people


but that doesn't change my opinion what an unfair advantage is or not

 

[Sl8yer]

yeah. and they decide what that is.

They have. In the Terms & Conditions they state that the use of software which allows data mining or that in any other way collects information associated with the Games is prohibited. That makes Helper prohibited software.

All claims that you are allowed to use Helper come form the Helper team. You can not show me one statement from Inno that they make an exception for Helper. I can show you several rules that clearly show Helper is illegal software.

 

[Deleted User - 241425]

That makes Helper prohibited software.

Just ask this question for Juber:
Is FOE helper prohibited? Yes or no ?
You will see if the answer is as simple as you seem to say.

 

[outoftheline]

All claims that you are allowed to use Helper come form the Helper team.

I personally never said that, I said this: https://forum.beta.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/stop-messing-up-the-icons.13892/#post-113597
Other people in the team might not be that good with English, therefor using the wrong words, dunno.

 

[outoftheline]

They have. In the Terms & Conditions they state that the use of software which allows data mining or that in any other way collects information associated with the Games is prohibited.

Well, there have always been exceptions, though. For example the city builder that was around for a long time used game data. Or right now score.db collects game stats (almost) daily.

 

[Grzechu Junior]

They have. In the Terms & Conditions they state that the use of software which allows data mining or that in any other way collects information associated with the Games is prohibited. That makes Helper prohibited software.

you know what data mining is? Or collecting information associated with games?
it has nothing to do with foe helper. Its for ppl trying to get info about games and players for their private purpose, to collect information not given to them. Searching in code, console for it - this is what this point is about.

 

[CrashBoom]

They have. In the Terms & Conditions they state that the use of software which allows data mining or that in any other way collects information associated with the Games is prohibited. That makes Helper prohibited software.

then ForgeDB and similar stats sites are also prohibited

because those are also 3rd party and not from InnoGames

 

[Sl8yer]

Just ask this question for Juber:
Is FOE helper prohibited? Yes or no ?
You will see if the answer is as simple as you seem to say.

He already gave the answer

Certainly, if you would like to avoid potentially being banned — or encountering technical complications that could hamper your experience — we would avoid installing any third-party Forge of Empires software.

https://forum.beta.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/how-to-ensure-your-online-safety.15129/

Well, there have always been exceptions, though. For example the city builder that was around for a long time used game data. Or right now score.db collects game stats (almost) daily.

There are no exceptions in the Game Rules and Terms of Service.

The City Builder was banned for exactly that reason. Guy running it got all his game accounts banned, for suspicious behaviour. Score.db might still collect game stats. Forge.db (FoE Stats) did the exact same. They have been inactive without an explanation for some time now.

you know what data mining is? Or collecting information associated with games?
it has nothing to do with foe helper. Its for ppl trying to get info about games and players for their private purpose, to collect information not given to them. Searching in code, console for it - this is what this point is about.

You know what comprehensive reading is? "data mining or that in any other way collects information associated with the Games". Thanks for confirming that is exactly what Helper does.

then ForgeDB and similar stats sites are also prohibited

because those are also 3rd party and not from InnoGames

According to the T&C they are.

 

[Grzechu Junior]

or that in any other way collects information associated with the Games

no it is not. This is meant about information OF THE GAME ITSELF, How it works, code of it, marketing, database of players, ID of players, email of players, geeting info of alghorytms included in games.
This is for such info. Not calculating data given by game.
its not about info given by the game, but for the info needed for creator of games, data developers, marketing, advertising, bot production etc.

 

[Deleted User - 241425]

He already gave the answer

Certainly, if you would like to avoid potentially being banned — or encountering technical complications that could hamper your experience — we would avoid installing any third-party Forge of Empires software.

So he advises to avoid using them but does not prohibit. Do you see the nuance or my English is too rough to make you understand the difference between "at your own risk" and "PROHIBITED"!?

 

[Sl8yer]

no it is not. This is meant about information OF THE GAME ITSELF, How it works, code of it, marketing, database of players, ID of players, email of players, geeting info of alghorytms included in games.
This is for such info. Not calculating data given by game.
its not about info given by the game, but for the info needed for creator of games, data developers, marketing, advertising, bot production etc.

The Terms & Conditions is an agreement between you as a player and Inno.

1.2 By acknowledging the GTC, we conclude a licensing agreement with you. When using the Games via a browser you, as User, acknowledge the GTC for our Services by ticking the box "I accept the General Terms and Conditions" and clicking the registration button.

2.1 As User, you conclude a contract with us for the free of charge use of Games via the browser or via Mobile Apps ("Licensing Agreement"). You are neither entitled to a Licensing Agreement nor to the use of the Services or the Premium Services. The Licensing Agreement can be terminated by us and by you at any time without giving reasons, and the Services can be discontinued at any time without giving reasons.

Regardless of others data mining, calculating, or whatever you want to call it, you are not allowed to use it. That's what you agreed to when signing up as a player. Same as you agreed to not take advantage of bugs. That players still do does not mean it is allowed to.

So he advises to avoid using them but does not prohibit. Do you see the nuance or my English is too rough to make you understand the difference between "at your own risk" and "PROHIBITED"!?

He does not advice anything. He posts a statement given to him by Inno. Every CM on every server has posted that. T & c says it is PROHIBITED. Juber has no authority to go against that. He has some authority when it comes to game rules, but not when it comes to T & C. Those apply to all players. No exceptions, not on any server.