Feedback ForgePlus

[GorrothBeta]

Prices are still varied as well. It's a 70C$ a month offer for me on live. Don't have it on beta.

They widened their A/B test yesterday - I caught all 3 (ForgePlus, FP purchase window, Daily Challenge) on live now. On beta I only have the new FP purchase window now (I had none of the 3, so widened there too; but I missed 2/3 of em). So clearly they're not fully released yet.

Thanks for the feedback. It's true, they're actually testing some features on live servers (I also caught all three). They could have at least announced that it's the case. Or maybe I missed said announcement.

That said, it's amazing how clueless they are about the pricing. Those numbers are just crazy, especially for what little value the package gives. Maybe they should hire an economist to teach them the concept of price elasticity.

 

[Atokirina]

Thanks for the feedback. It's true, they're actually testing some features on live servers (I also caught all three). They could have at least announced that it's the case. Or maybe I missed said announcement.

That said, it's amazing how clueless they are about the pricing. Those numbers are just crazy, especially for what little value the package gives. Maybe they should hire an economist to teach them the concept of price elasticity.

Making stats of what is possible and what is giving the most profit, is really valuable. Innogames knows what it is doing. I wouldn't worry about them.

Gathering data is what they're doing at the moment, it isn't their first rodeo.

 

[mcbluefire]

I doubt that. They think they are gathering data, but they are living in insanity land. The lowest price I've seen is $29.99 for these pitiful plus features for 28 days. The highest is $69.99 for the same 28 days. There is nothing in this plus package that equates to $1.07 to $2.50 per day. If they want to ever make money on this they need to drop to $3 to $5 per MONTH (not 28 days) and then they'll get buyers.

 

[Just4FoEbeta]

I doubt that. They think they are gathering data, but they are living in insanity land. The lowest price I've seen is $29.99 for these pitiful plus features for 28 days. The highest is $69.99 for the same 28 days. There is nothing in this plus package that equates to $1.07 to $2.50 per day. If they want to ever make money on this they need to drop to $3 to $5 per MONTH (not 28 days) and then they'll get buyers.

I know some players already bought it on live. If Inno stats say that if it is $30, 1 person out of 100 will buy it, but if it is $5, only 5 people out of 100 will buy it, then they'll obviously go for the $30 pricing. It is not because you (and me ) wouldn't buy at that price that there isn't a market for it

 

[Atokirina]

They've also done similar tests some time back in Elvenar.

 

[Yekk]

I know some players already bought it on live. If Inno stats say that if it is $30, 1 person out of 100 will buy it, but if it is $5, only 5 people out of 100 will buy it, then they'll obviously go for the $30 pricing. It is not because you (and me ) wouldn't buy at that price that there isn't a market for it

...
The 5 $5 players would buy a second month. The $30 player will not...One player in my guild bought the $39 pack. His message was it is not worth $3. No one in guild will buy it again...Why would/should they?? Even if Inno adds to the package it is not a salable product is it?

 

[CrashBoom]

I know some players already bought it on live. If Inno stats say that if it is $30, 1 person out of 100 will buy it, but if it is $5, only 5 people out of 100 will buy it, then they'll obviously go for the $30 pricing. It is not because you (and me ) wouldn't buy at that price that there isn't a market for it

better try $100
then one out of 200 will even be better

 

[Balinor]

The 5 $5 players would buy a second month. The $30 player will not...One player in my guild bought the $39 pack. His message was it is not worth $3

You have no way of knowing this you are only speculating
All I get from your post is you have at least one player dumb enough in your guild to not figure out this isnt worth it before buying it

No one in guild will buy it again...Why would/should they?? Even if Inno adds to the package it is not a salable product is it?

Doesnt matter if no one in your guild buys it again 1 already did
If one player from every guild is dumb enough to waste money on this inno games will consider this a win
It doesnt matter what the other 99% think

 

[Yekk]

You have no way of knowing this you are only speculating
All I get from your post is you have at least one player dumb enough in your guild to not figure out this isnt worth it before buying it

Doesnt matter if no one in your guild buys it again 1 already did
If one player from every guild is dumb enough to waste money on this inno games will consider this a win
It doesnt matter what the other 99% think

I have owned and ran companies since the late 70's. Yes I do.., It is called experience...

 

[iPenguinPat]

...
The 5 $5 players would buy a second month. The $30 player will not...One player in my guild bought the $39 pack. His message was it is not worth $3. No one in guild will buy it again...Why would/should they?? Even if Inno adds to the package it is not a salable product is it?

You have no way of knowing this you are only speculating
All I get from your post is you have at least one player dumb enough in your guild to not figure out this isnt worth it before buying it

Doesnt matter if no one in your guild buys it again 1 already did
If one player from every guild is dumb enough to waste money on this inno games will consider this a win
It doesnt matter what the other 99% think

Pricing models and renewal rates are complicated. Inno knows that there are at least X% of players that just won't pay attention to the cost and will spend because they are either addicted or find the cost to be insignificant.

We've seen that inno tends to focus on loading up-front sales from players and focuses less on customer lifetime value. My experience has always been that maxing CLV tends to be most profitable because the cost of acquisition tends to increase over time and cut into margins.

It stands to reason that the cost to maintain players long term exceeds the benefit of increasing CLV via retention. Furthermore, forge is a habit forming game with mechanics that are highly addictive. It stands to reason that inno has found that efforts to improve retention do not increase retention enough to justify the cost. They could improve the endgame, but it's easier and more cost-effective to just chunk 10k diamonds at players that go inactive. Giving away a huge sum in game currency to a player that has already quit is zero cost to inno games and zero risk.

I'm way off track now - but the point is that for most orgs, 5x$5 for X months > 1x$30 for 1 month. Even a 20% drop off rate (25, 20, 15, 10, 5, 0) would be 2.5x the profit, but that's just not the gaming company we're dealing with.

 

[Yekk]

Pricing models and renewal rates are complicated. Inno knows that there are at least X% of players that just won't pay attention to the cost and will spend because they are either addicted or find the cost to be insignificant.

We've seen that inno tends to focus on loading up-front sales from players and focuses less on customer lifetime value. My experience has always been that maxing CLV tends to be most profitable because the cost of acquisition tends to increase over time and cut into margins.

It stands to reason that the cost to maintain players long term exceeds the benefit of increasing CLV via retention. Furthermore, forge is a habit forming game with mechanics that are highly addictive. It stands to reason that inno has found that efforts to improve retention do not increase retention enough to justify the cost. They could improve the endgame, but it's easier and more cost-effective to just chunk 10k diamonds at players that go inactive. Giving away a huge sum in game currency to a player that has already quit is zero cost to inno games and zero risk.

I'm way off track now - but the point is that for most orgs, 5x$5 for X months > 1x$30 for 1 month. Even a 20% drop off rate (25, 20, 15, 10, 5, 0) would be 2.5x the profit, but that's just not the gaming company we're dealing with.

The lowest price I have seen or heard of was $29 or so. I do not think Inno, in any market marketed a lower cost. Yes Inno rewards its whales. I know many whales. They do not like Forge Plus. Yes Inno profiles players. Costs in my guild for those who can see Forge Plus varied. Henry Ford showed selling low cost cars to millions makes much more money than selling to high price cars to hundreds. The profit on those hundreds never adds up to the combined profit on millions.

 

[Born to be a Banana]

My thoughts on FoE Plus so far :

For what it currently offers, and as it does not revolutionize anything at all, I would not even pay 5 euros a month. I'd only consider it for smth like 20 euros a year. And I do spend money in the game. So I'm not talking as a F2P person, I would be willing to pay for it.

As we are talking about premium feature, let's keep in mind that players who would want this are active players who want either comfort in their gameplay, or quick progress. People willing to pay for something are generally gonna be active ones, so obviously, we need to consider their needs.

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Let's go over it quickly (I'll try not to mention the price too much...) :

- 1000 FPs limit -

For early-game players : Useless. You have many ways to spend your harvested FPs if you get over 100, and there's still the 5 diamonds collect all button if necessary. Tbh, 5 diamonds a day isn't much for any player doing GE4 every week and a bit active in GBG.
For end-game players : Nice to have, especially if like me you can have slow 1.9 threads in your guild and a big harvest of FPs. (Though for me 1000 FP limit won't be enough ).

* My suggestion : Keep it as it is. I don't think removing the limit would be a good solution.

- Collect all for free -

Bare minimum for a premium feature. So nothing special here.

* My suggestion : Keep it as it is.

- 15% ATK/DEF for attacking army -

For early-game players : Nice to have in very early stages. Becomes meh in early stages.
For end-game players : Useless. People at this stage already have over a 1000% ATK for most of them...

* My suggestion : Start with a 5% bonus and increase it 5 by 5 every era. Bronze Age : 5% --> SAJM : 100%. Not a game-breaker imo.

- 50 goods & 10 FPs... a week ? -

For early-game players : Nice addition... Oh wait that's per week ? If it were per day, it'd be nice, per week, you're just kidding me.
For end-game players : Uh... Beyond useless. Per day would still be nice though.

* My suggestion : Make it per day. Simple as that.

- Exclusive chrono in Antiques -

Good one here. Nice addition. For everyone.

* My suggestion : Keep it.

- One free refresh of Antiques shop -

One feels low, but why not. Might consider upgrading to at least two, but that would depend on the price you pay to me. For the current price I would at least expect 3-4 refresh a day ^^

* My suggestion : Depends on the final price and format you guys decide on. But keep it.

- First 2 emissaries doubled-production -

For early-game players : Well... Since colonies are quite long to accomplish, it is useless for this category of players imo.
For end-game players : Why only the first two ? What they add is already quite low and not game-breaking.

* My suggestion : Double every of them. It's not game-breaking.

- Faster healing ? -

Don't have info on that one since I personally have the 30 euros one, and it does not include it. Maybe Innogames considers units healing faster is worth 20 euros a month ? I don't really know... It is nice for early-game, in late game you don't really care about that if you levelled up your Traz.

* My suggestion : Keep it.

- Golden cosmetic thingy -

Honestly pretty cool. If you like to flex that is. But does not bring anything to the game.

* My suggestion : Keep it. Give a way to disable it for people not wanting to show off.

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Final thing is the price or rather the format it takes. Monthly subscription ? One-time purchase ? Yearly subscription ? Currently it feels like a one-time purchase to me... Though from Inno's pov, it would not be very profitable if it were. So my suggestion is to keep it a monthly one, with a way to buy it yearly (with a discount please ?).

HOWEVER ! Not as this price for god's sake... I don't know who thought it was a good idea, but I truly feel insulted by the price. There are ways to make money with a game that reward both the players and the company without insulting people. Better to lower the price, so that more people buy it and are happy with what it offers than making it expensive so only a dozen of players buy it and the vast majority are unhappy with the feature.

Even with the modifications I suggest, I would make this a 5-euro monthly subscription, being 50 euros yearly. And please keep in mind lots of 5-to-10-euros monthly subscriptions offer much more than that (Amazon Prime, Crunchyroll, Netflix, PSN, EA Play...).

So please try not to scam us, we are not *that* stoopid

I'm pretty sure my suggestions are not game-breaking, but I haven't done any calculations, so... Any feedback is welcomed

 

[DEADP00L]

Getting premium benefits by paying REASONABLY seems justified to me.
But in the case of FOE + neither the price nor the advantages can please.
5€ per month is a good price, above you will scare away potential customers.
For the benefits, I'm very close to the "born to be a banana" analysis. You need benefits that save time without making too big of a difference to non-subscribers.
By not changing anything of what you offer but by adding the possibility of making the po/mo of a social bar in 1 click, there you would meet the expectations of the players.
We don't want a single click for neighbors + guild + friends but one for the guild and one for the friends. I see no point in motivating all the neighbours. And if possible the same button for friends' taverns.
I am certain that at €5 monthly with the addition of po/mo, you will have a very large majority of players who will subscribe. As a result, your earnings would be much greater than €50 for not even 1% of your customers.

 

[Yekk]

Making stats of what is possible and what is giving the most profit, is really valuable. Innogames knows what it is doing. I wouldn't worry about them.

Gathering data is what they're doing at the moment, it isn't their first rodeo.

2021 would seem to prove you wrong...unless you were doing sarcasm

 

[Yekk]

Getting premium benefits by paying REASONABLY seems justified to me.
But in the case of FOE + neither the price nor the advantages can please.
5€ per month is a good price, above you will scare away potential customers.
For the benefits, I'm very close to the "born to be a banana" analysis. You need benefits that save time without making too big of a difference to non-subscribers.
By not changing anything of what you offer but by adding the possibility of making the po/mo of a social bar in 1 click, there you would meet the expectations of the players.
We don't want a single click for neighbors + guild + friends but one for the guild and one for the friends. I see no point in motivating all the neighbours. And if possible the same button for friends' taverns.
I am certain that at €5 monthly with the addition of po/mo, you will have a very large majority of players who will subscribe. As a result, your earnings would be much greater than €50 for not even 1% of your customers.

I am all for Inno making a big profit. When a profit happens they can then spend part of it to make the game better. But Forge Plus as it is will not bring that big profit. It is poorly thought out.

 

[DEADP00L]

I still have nothing against Jubber but I see that there is no answer from inno as to the prices and benefits of FOE+...

 

[MooingCat]

Has there been any official word at all?

 

[drakenridder]

some have to pay Euro 79,99 and some Euro 49,99

My euro’s might be more worth it for some unexplainable reason cause for me it’s “only” €30,- a month. Not sure why others have to pay up to more then double though. Really strange and totally not worth a penny. If it would’ve been something more useful as on Grepolis’ premium subscriptions (advisories, eg high priest) it would’ve been way better. If they would’ve offered an discounted annual 1-time subscription it would be somewhat reasonable at €120 for an year with a few exclusive appealing features.

 

[Born to be a Banana]

Has there been any official word at all?

I don't think there has been anything official. Which makes it even weirder to me. Normally for something like that you'd expect to have an official announcement showing off all the "good" things of it, and asking for our feedback and stuff... But nothing at all.

However, I find it quite bold to do A/B testing on prices, especially with such gaps between them. I think it's a first in any video games I came to play... Maybe it's been done in the past for some video games but then I'm not aware of it. Not sure what to think about this way of proceeding, but I don't really like how this situation is handled.

@Juber would it be possible to know if the feedback in this thread is being brought to light to the marketing team ?

 

[Juber]

@Juber would it be possible to know if the feedback in this thread is being brought to light to the marketing team ?

I read and forward everything you write here, but can/will not comment on anything currently.