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Feedback Forge Bowl 2023

Kronan

Kronan

Viceroy
Matteozzzo said:
Ok, I understand the correct strategy, now.

But let me underline something:
Till now events were much easier, I didn't need to think to get a full set of the event building.
It was more than enough just to log in and play every day.
This has changed with this event and it wasn't clear at the beginning of the event (at least it wasn't to me).
Click to expand...

This isn't that black or white (hard/easy). Is it the easy layup of 5 years ago, when 60-80% of the players did high-5's that they got the event prize for just showing up?

No - emphatically no. The price of poker has gone up in the event designs, but it's not like a light bulb turning on immediately. Inno has added more and sharper math, layers of multiple micro-events (distractions) and other exploratory things into layers in all new events,but over time. @Ironrooster navigated ALL this FABULOUSLY, and takes top prize. He got lots of desired daily specials AND the event prize. He groks it.

Most people can't focus on a single goal, or even attempt to stack 2 goals (event super prize AND daily special aggregation..) into a single coherent strategy. It's not easy - you have to plan and know what you're doing.

Luckily, this game has math quants in the player community, and they are very good at decoding all that complexity into an edible event strategy for the masses. But if you venture out on your own, you risk missing your event objectives (any/all) and will then have to pay for it via penance - money or diamonds - which makes UP for your errors or mistakes.

The bigger picture is that if EVERYONE always gets ALL the prizes from the event without spending, Inno doesn't make their revenue projections for the event or events. They will then adjust the complexity up so that it comes into balance for them, and through us as tighter layers of achievement and a harder path to success.

Right now they seem to be @ 1 in 5 for "Free or super low cost". My hypothesis stems from the fact that we need the final upgrade from leagues (or similar competitive event structures on other events...) to be successful for getting the full event building.

Since BRONZE in this leagues status creates the "boundary" for success @ 20% for the population, then it's clear that Inno has set their signs on that boundary for mostly free rewards.

They know the risks if they make them too hard (no event revenue as people just give up). They have to have a "carrot" out there so people at least try to earn the prizes, and get so close they will pay to cross the finish line if it's a reasonable amount of earned (or payed for) diamonds.
 
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DEADP00L

DEADP00L

Emperor
Perk Creator
I'm going to speak against your opinion, but I find it normal, even intelligent, for Innogames to force players to choose between a special event building at its maximum and daily prizes.
I found it abnormal that one could have butter and money for butter.
Give management and strategy to this game which is gradually becoming a great lottery!
 
Kronan

Kronan

Viceroy
DEADP00L said:
I'm going to speak against your opinion, but I find it normal, even intelligent, for Innogames to force players to choose between a special event building at its maximum and daily prizes.
I found it abnormal that one could have butter and money for butter.
Give management and strategy to this game which is gradually becoming a great lottery!
Click to expand...
Look at it this way for a minute (I hate detailing what their strategy might be, in their public forum...)

The way it lined up for @Ironrooster was perfect because he understood the underlying dynamics of BOTH sides of the event. It's a no brainer to get both, especially the way he did it. He just threw 150 more diamonds at his "dual track" strategy of having his cake (daily special) and eating it too (Event building).

Inno might turn that off, or they might leave it alone. Inno loves when we talk about their game and tell each other how to beat it. They then fix it so it's not so easy to beat. (Case in point: Winter Event 2022 - they reduced the upgrades after Vic bought his tranche and build his beta city...)

Since it's my theory that it's hard ENOUGH to get 1 prize, you have to be pretty erudite to understand the spedific game mechanics well enough that you can walk around the MATH with aplomb, and get both.

But that's what he did, and he detailed the way he did it.

Here it is again as succinct as we can make it: SAVE WAY UP, COACH WAY UP, SPEND cheap

Enjoy your event prize.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but he showed it was possible, so that will empower others to try it on the next event or the live event - get 2 for the price of...2 (or 1 if you're really lucky..)

Inno WANTS complication and multiple paths that call at you like the Sirens of Greek mythology - every event day. They want you to get close enough to the finish line, so FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) pop up in your brain and you consider spending diamonds to ENSURE you get it.

You can see that in this topic!! People quietly wondering if they should spend a few diamonds to get a few more stars so they STAY in bronze to get the final upgrade, or even stay in Silver.

That's FUD - that's what Inno want x 100,000 people that play this 8 times a year (or whatever number of events happen/year). Generally people hate complex game, like St. Patty's day, or the POPDROP game, etc. Inno loves these game because they make people spend MONEY!

SO yeah - they have staff of mathematicians that build razor-sharp game designs so if you make a simple mistake, recovery costs you. They also have data scientists that KNOW the temperament and mannerism of their players (both individually and collectively) and then they have psychologist that understand the gambling psyche and so many other things that make up how to SELL and be successful.

Put those all together and you have a potent brew of things going in here. Doing this is INNO's BUSINESS.

There is an old wise saying: 2nd mouse gets the cheese. Those people that RUSH into the event and get all the early quests done in a day or 2...(at the first avatar goal, and daily quest changeover...) do so at their own peril. Rushing removes study time, and study time makes winners.

Don't be a 1st mouse. The trap springs on you, and breaks your neck.
 
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Sinitar

Sinitar

Regent
DEADP00L said:
I'm going to speak against your opinion, but I find it normal, even intelligent, for Innogames to force players to choose between a special event building at its maximum and daily prizes.
I found it abnormal that one could have butter and money for butter.
Give management and strategy to this game which is gradually becoming a great lottery!
Click to expand...
You can going to speak against anytime about this opinion but it's the bad truth ...
I come here on purpose to test since several years ago who's the better strategy to complete the event without/spending few diamonds
When someone had completed his special event building, the smartests were able to gain 1/2 additional kits for free
The fair of this is that the information turns only for those who manage to understand the concepts ... and then obviously there are those who spend without understanding the mechanics of an event and then find themselves in a fist of flies
And it could also happens that he would like to be refunded for his mistakes made(if has bought diamonds with money)
INNO understood this concept and for this they're narrowing the circle
 
kawada

kawada

Marquis
  • Firstly, we have decided to adjust the price for the Ultimate Coach. Instead of 150 diamonds, it will now cost 475 diamonds.
  • Next, we have increased the Fragments of the Epic Forge Bowl 2023 Selection Kit from 5 to 10 at the daily specials.
  • We have also increased the amount of some rewards in the Bowl Prizes.
  • The Milestone Quests now provide 100 Footballs more each.
  • The Pizzeria now provides 2 Fragments of the Store Building Kit.
Click to expand...

oh I hope other changes will balance the event and the coach is not required anymore… but the jump from 150 to 475 - WTH???…
 
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DEADP00L

DEADP00L

Emperor
Perk Creator
Conclusion: thank you for not returning to the beta forum, because when we find a solution, Inno rectifies immediately in stride.
Second consecutive event where Inno restricts us live but never takes into account our negative remarks.
Let's play happy, let's close our ......
 
Juber

Juber

Overlord
Community Manager
DEADP00L said:
Conclusion: thank you for not returning to the beta forum, because when we find a solution, Inno rectifies immediately in stride.
Second consecutive event where Inno restricts us live but never takes into account our negative remarks.
Let's play happy, let's close our ......
Click to expand...
Could you please tell me what feedback was not addressed? I will be happy to forward it. Until now the Pizzeria was buffed, rewards were improved, new kits were made more clear, more Footballs are given out now. I would not say, that this is "never takes into account our negative remarks."
The only negative change was the increase of the price for the Ultimate Coach.
 
drakenridder

drakenridder

Overlord
Perk Creator
@Juber could you provide us with some information what has led to the reason, after many years, that the devs decided to increase the price of the ultimate coach by more then 216%? It is a very steep increase, in particular with rising inflation and devaluation of diamonds (especially due after the suspiciously rushed "test" phase of P2W transition of event passes).
To the best of my knowledge inflation in the west hasn't risen above 20%, even if it did, it's still an inflated price of nearly 11x the real inflation.
 
MooingCat

MooingCat

Viceroy
Spoiler Poster
Juber said:
Could you please tell me what feedback was not addressed? I will be happy to forward it. Until now the Pizzeria was buffed, rewards were improved, new kits were made more clear, more Footballs are given out now. I would not say, that this is "never takes into account our negative remarks."
The only negative change was the increase of the price for the Ultimate Coach.
Click to expand...
The increase is a big deal because it heavily nerfed the only way to guarantee getting a full building. Now fewer people will be go for it, and instead go for progress coach. The 200 additional footballs are nice, but you still need to pick up a lot from incidents.
 
UBERhelp1

UBERhelp1

Viceroy
I mean, on the bright side at least the coach doesn't cost $5 to unlock :p

I don't even know what to say to this. I feel like this community has been stabbed in the back multiple times this holiday season, first with changing the event passes to be paid, and be much more expensive than the diamonds for them originally would be, without any value add. Then, we get an event that already would be hard enough to get the main building for, to the point where you have to spend diamonds on the diamond coach. And now, Inno is jacking up the price to prey on their players.

I'm fine with monetization. I really am. But how Inno is doing it currently is predatory, sucking free to play out of the game, and destroying what goodwill they had with the community. The only thing a F2P player can hope for now is that enough people don't buy the ultimate coach so that they have a small chance of getting a fully leveled Pergola. Those extra 200 footballs aren't enough.

Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, in the past year, Inno has introduced many more monetization features while also making diamonds harder to get:
  • Forge Plus
  • Video Ads
  • Paid Event Passes (or event passes in general)
  • No WW as daily specials anymore (only small numbers of fragments or shrink kits)
  • Events where it's difficult to get the main building for free (ie, this one) without spending diamonds
 
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MooingCat

MooingCat

Viceroy
Spoiler Poster
Compared to last year, assuming progress coach and no top 20% (which is very unlikely with progress coach):

2022: 9710 footballs / 9.57 footballs per yard = 1015 yards on average, 1040 yards required for full main building (880 with surprise box):

This means 97.6% of required footballs are covered, missing 243 footballs from incidents etc. However, that's without the event surprise box, if you had that you only needed 880 yards, so you had +15% extra footballs, not including incidents.

2023: 10870 footballs / 9.57 footballs per yard = 1136 yards on average, 1200 yards required for full main building (and no surprise box):

This means 94.7% of required footballs are covered, missing 614 footballs from incidents etc.

Conclusions:
  • Number of footballs have been nerfed (compared to required)
  • No event pass to make up for lack of footballs
  • Diamond coach, which the previous two points have made much more important, has been nerfed with a +216% increase in cost.

This feedback, not necessarily in those terms, but same idea, was reiterated plenty of times throughout the event, The little that was done to address it (+200 footballs) is not enough, especially when the only alternative was heavily nerfed at the same time.
 
.Chris

.Chris

Baronet
I understand the introduction of fragments. I even welcome the introduction of fragments for "OP" buildings like WW, WW shrink kits, Sleigh Builders, etc., it gives Inno the possibilitie to reward players with good buildings without making it trivial.

But Fragments as grand prizes should just NEVER be a thing imho.

Even "Grand Prizes" like medals leave a sour taste in my mouth since there is nothing "Grand" about those. Having those in between prizes might be necessary for the balancing of the mini games, however it would be a better feel if a Main Building Kit and medals would not be presented as equally grand.

From now on I will not share positives here on the forum. Whenever we give feedback like "that's well balanced" or "fairly prized" it seems to be taken as: Here is a chance to make it more costly.
And not only by a little bit... OVER 200% cost increase? You have got to be kidding me.
 
drakenridder

drakenridder

Overlord
Perk Creator
@Juber Does this new "balance" for increasing diamond's event features by 216%, that diamonds for cash also get buffed by 216%? Imho this should be the case to not significantly discourage the diamond purchases further. E.G. cheapest diamonds for cash in the app should at the live launch of this event offer:
110 diamonds 350 diamonds. Also all other diamonds for cash should be buffed by 216%+.
Imho this could be an okay-ish way to making diamonds for cash worth the money again, though lacking event pass tokens, it's still a bad deal compared to the original event pass costs.
 
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