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Feedback [Feedback] - Oceanic Future Part 6

  • Thread starter Retired Community Manager
  • Start date

DeletedUser

Guest
@Zarok is there any known AI changes we/i've missed here ?

There have been no changes to the AI, but that does not necessarily mean this is a bug either. There are many variables involved with the AI so we would need to look at each individual occurrence. If anyone can consistently reproduce this please post in our bugs section with as much detail as possible. Such as where was the battle, what units were involved, your system info, whether you are playing in Flash or HTML5 etc.. Then we can look into it further to try and determine what factors may have changed the usual behavior.
Thanks all :)
 

DeletedUser7779

Guest
@Zarok Dai I'm not 100% certain but I think it happened to me on lvl 4 GE. 2nd wave had 3 medusas, so I went in with 5 real units and 3 rogues. I didn't lose any on first wave. On 2nd wave, I expected the 3 medusas to turn my 3 rogues. I had 2 rogues at full health and 1 damaged rogue at i think 2 pips left . The first medusa turned my damaged rogue, but then to my surprise the 2nd or 3rd medusa didn't hit the other rogue, but killed the one which had just turned. I was playing on app if this matters.
It's been only this one time I've noticed this, so i guess there's something very specific that triggers this behavior.
 

DeletedUser8858

Guest
Apologies, i did not write down the details, it was GE 4, 3rd section. One of the waves had one medusa so i had 1 rogue, it attacked the topmost unit instead of the rogue as the first move. I will pay attention next week.
 

DeletedUser8150

Guest
@Zarok Dai I'm not 100% certain but I think it happened to me on lvl 4 GE. 2nd wave had 3 medusas, so I went in with 5 real units and 3 rogues. I didn't lose any on first wave. On 2nd wave, I expected the 3 medusas to turn my 3 rogues. I had 2 rogues at full health and 1 damaged rogue at i think 2 pips left . The first medusa turned my damaged rogue, but then to my surprise the 2nd or 3rd medusa didn't hit the other rogue, but killed the one which had just turned. I was playing on app if this matters.
It's been only this one time I've noticed this, so i guess there's something very specific that triggers this behavior.

Your description is identical to what happened to me. PC/Flash in my case but the circumstances the same. 3 enemy medusas 2nd battle of GE4 and they ignored an in range rogue for a damaged turtle.
 

DeletedUser7779

Guest
Btw to continue the medusa topic, here the ultimate proof that something is really wrong. I attacked a neighbor with 8 medusas. They had 8 eels in defense. Not only that i won, but I won against a 1100 % defense !!!!! How is it possible that eels have defense bonus against medusas, 1110% defense on top of that and they get wiped ?? And i only lost 4 medusas. This is so wrong.

Screenshot_20180421-082304_resized_20180421_103351144.jpg
 

DeletedUser8150

Guest
Btw to continue the medusa topic, here the ultimate proof that something is really wrong. I attacked a neighbor with 8 medusas. They had 8 eels in defense. Not only that i won, but I won against a 1100 % defense !!!!! How is it possible that eels have defense bonus against medusas, 1110% defense on top of that and they get wiped ?? And i only lost 4 medusas. This is so wrong.

View attachment 3082

Whats ur attack/def - even if its silly high that still looks bonkers. Perhaps I better build a medusa barrack quickly b4 it gets nerfed! (Generally I dislike deployment units as they get smashed on turn 1 but clearly not here!)
 
Btw to continue the medusa topic, here the ultimate proof that something is really wrong. I attacked a neighbor with 8 medusas. They had 8 eels in defense. Not only that i won, but I won against a 1100 % defense !!!!! How is it possible that eels have defense bonus against medusas, 1110% defense on top of that and they get wiped ?? And i only lost 4 medusas. This is so wrong.

View attachment 3082
what is your attack/defence bonus and AO and Kraken levels?
Just because eels have a bonus against artillery it doesn't make them a stronger unit than the medusa.
An eels main strength is it's stealth, which medusa ignores.
Without any att/def bonus on either side eel is 180/150 + extra 150 against artillery = 180/300
Medusa is 210/140 + 240 blast for being 40 hexes closer (low estimate) = 450/140
So Medusa is not only stronger than an eel it fires before it as well.
 

DeletedUser7942

Guest
Btw to continue the medusa topic, here the ultimate proof that something is really wrong. I attacked a neighbor with 8 medusas. They had 8 eels in defense. Not only that i won, but I won against a 1100 % defense !!!!! How is it possible that eels have defense bonus against medusas, 1110% defense on top of that and they get wiped ?? And i only lost 4 medusas. This is so wrong.

View attachment 3082
I'm guessing if the Medusa's had at least an attack value of 1,150 and alway hit the high end of 5 damage I can see that happening, at least according to that damage calculator, but as far as I understand blast I can't see how they would be getting that amount. Even if they were right next to the Eels they would only get +300. You don't have 850 extra do ya:confused:

11111111.PNG

oh, and that guy's gotta be in tears after having that defense broken, good grief, who has a +1000 defense lol.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Without any att/def bonus on either side eel is 180/150 + extra 150 against artillery = 180/300
according to this pic the eel has 2027 !!!!!!!!!!!! def against artillery (not your ridiculous low value of 300)
index.php


try to win that with a not-bugged other unit
you are very lucky if you kill 2 of them

and still InnoGames refuses the check the match

Medusa is 210/140 + 240 blast for being 40 hexes closer (low estimate) = 450/140
So Medusa is not only stronger than an eel it fires before it as well.
stronger than 2000 ???????????????????????

even with 300% attack boost that ends at 1080 attack including your blast value

only a fool thinks that this can be correct and not a bug
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
I'm guessing if the Medusa's had at least an attack value of 1,150 and alway hit the high end of 5 damage I can see that happening, at least according to that damage calculator, but as far as I understand blast I can't see how they would be getting that amount. Even if they were right next to the Eels they would only get +300. You don't have 850 extra do ya:confused:

View attachment 3083

oh, and that guy's gotta be in tears after having that defense broken, good grief, who has a +1000 defense lol.
you have forgotten the 150 defense of eels against artillery

please use the correct value of 2027 and not 1877
 

DeletedUser7779

Guest
I was doing 2-5 damage to the eels. My attack is 344%.
So far so good, one would think that damage calculator is right.
But:
I just attacked the very same neighbor. He had changed defense to 7 scimitars 1 glider. My medusas were doing 2-4 damage to the scimitar!!!!! Vs 2-5 to the eels yesterday!!!! And medusas get attack bonus against light units!! So the damage calculation is not consistent. It's bugged. No way i should be winning against 8 eels but losing to scimitars.

I recorded a video of that battle, will upload later when I get on comp
 

DeletedUser7942

Guest
I recorded a video of that battle, will upload later when I get on comp
That would be great thanks. And just wanted to say I'm not questioning you at all, I just simply don't know if it's a bug myself or not or I believe it just simply may be too powerful with that Range even though they cut it half. I don't know, on my limited testing so far you can see it would take my Medusa's two hits to kill any OF unit which is no different than my HT experience with a bit more a/p bonus really.
[Feedback] - Oceanic Future Part 6
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I just attacked the very same neighbor. He had changed defense to 7 scimitars 1 glider. My medusas were doing 2-4 damage to the scimitar!!!!! Vs 2-5 to the eels yesterday!!!! And medusas get attack bonus against light units!! So the damage calculation is not consistent. It's bugged.
that the scimitar takes less damage is correct (for his stats)
with 1151% defense boost they have 2502 defense (compared to 2027 of the eels where the 150 against artillery are already included)

medusa only has 150 bonus against light

so attacker 150 more but defender almost 500 more
that explains that the damage goes down
 
according to this pic the eel has 2027 !!!!!!!!!!!! def against artillery (not your ridiculous low value of 300)



try to win that with a not-bugged other unit
you are very lucky if you kill 2 of them

and still InnoGames refuses the check the match


stronger than 2000 ???????????????????????

even with 300% attack boost that ends at 1080 attack including your blast value

only a fool thinks that this can be correct and not a bug
Why don't you try reading what people write before jumping at a chance to try and ridicule them?
Don't bother answering, anybody who follows the forums knows that you're the kind of insecure *** that has to put down everybody else to make yourself feel better about yourself.
I was pointing out that a medusa without attack / defence bonus is stronger than an eel that doesn't have attack / defence bonus, as anybody who actually read the post could clearly see.
 

qaccy

Emperor
Basically: Base stats matter much more than unit and terrain bonuses, because those scale with boost and bonuses do not. The higher your military boost, the less unit bonuses matter...as evidenced above by the extremely high defensive values. Adding +150 to a value of 300 is much more significant than adding it to a value of 2000.

It is somewhat funny that a light unit will take less damage from OF artillery than a fast unit, but this is only true at remarkable boost levels where the base stats render the unit bonuses irrelevant.

EDIT: Also interested in the discussion above regarding Rogues. I know it tries to get explained away whenever it's addressed that it's 'possible' for the AI to ignore Rogues, the truth is that it simply shouldn't happen in the situations described. A Medusa effectively has unlimited range in battle, so under no circumstances (if they're following the AI) should they ever hit a non-Rogue unit before a Rogue if one is available, because that's how every other unit operates. The only situations in which this isn't true is when an enemy unit is able to reach a non-Rogue but not a Rogue, they'll obviously attack the non-Rogue, but as I just said this is never the case for the Medusa no matter where it starts on the battlefield. If it's ever ignoring a Rogue and it's not in the continent map, then it's either a wholesale bug regardless of circumstance or Medusa has a different AI from other units.
 
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DeletedUser7942

Guest
Here's a switch if it makes ya feel any better, my poor little Medusa's got crushed today :(

ohk-eel-v-medusa.gif
 

DeletedUser7779

Guest
I think the scimitars are overpowered also. With a defense of 200 they are almost as good as octopods (defense of 220), which is exactly what a heavy unit should be, but surely not a light unit.

I just attacked this hoodie, who had 4 subs 4 scimitars in defense. I went in with turtles and crabs.
To my surprise, my turtles were doing exactly the same damage to the scimitars as they did to subs !! (2-4 damage).
Turtles have an attack bonus of 120 (!) vs light units, and subs have a 150 (!) defense bonus against artillery. But even so i was doing exactly the same damage to them!
How are we supposed to defeat scimitars when the unit which is supposed to be strong against them barely does a scratch?
Okay, this hoodie had like 600% defense, but that's not unusual for OF. It won't take long until everyone puts 8 scimitars in defense and that will kill the game.
Inno, please consider decreasing scimitar defense asap.
 

DeletedUser7942

Guest
I think the scimitars are overpowered also. With a defense of 200 they are almost as good as octopods (defense of 220), which is exactly what a heavy unit should be, but surely not a light unit.

I just attacked this hoodie, who had 4 subs 4 scimitars in defense. I went in with turtles and crabs.
To my surprise, my turtles were doing exactly the same damage to the scimitars as they did to subs !! (2-4 damage).
Turtles have an attack bonus of 120 (!) vs light units, and subs have a 150 (!) defense bonus against artillery. But even so i was doing exactly the same damage to them!
How are we supposed to defeat scimitars when the unit which is supposed to be strong against them barely does a scratch?
Okay, this hoodie had like 600% defense, but that's not unusual for OF. It won't take long until everyone puts 8 scimitars in defense and that will kill the game.
Inno, please consider decreasing scimitar defense asap.
Maybe it was balanced against Medusa 210 +150 attack v Scimitar 200 +140 defense which maybe they messed up thinking the art was heavy or somethin
 

qaccy

Emperor
Agreed that a unit with a weakness should be taking more damage than one that's neutral or has a resistance against your unit. However, the units are designed around base stats, where terrain and unit bonuses actually make a difference. In these instances, the bonuses would add up to cause the Scimitar to take more damage from artillery than a Sub. It's only once you factor in the huge military bonuses that are becoming increasingly common that the math starts to break apart.

At 0% bonus
Scimitar: 200 defense
Sub: 140 defense, 70 Dug In bonus, 150 defense against artillery = 390 defense
Turturret: 170 attack, 120 bonus against light = 290 attack vs light units

At 200% (x3) bonus
Scimitar: 200*3 defense = 600 defense
Sub: 140*3 defense, 70 Dug In, 150 artillery bonus = 640 defense
Turturret: 170*3 attack, 120 light bonus = 630 attack

As you can see, once you start counting bonuses, the base stats start to heavily eclipse whatever bonuses the unit may have. The 190 difference in defense between a Scimitar and Sub (against artillery) shrinks to only 40 at 200% bonus, and the Sub actually has 30 LESS if Dug In is factored out, compared to still being 120 ahead at 0% bonus. Likewise, the Turturret only has 30 more attack than a Scimitar's defense compared to 90, and 130 less attack than a Sub's defense compared to 220. I know this is a lot of numbers, but the fact is that if you're playing with and/or facing units with strong boosts, the bonuses become practically irrelevant. Everything becomes equally effective against everything, as strengths and weaknesses become heavily blurred. The only abilities that really matter now are flying and stealth, as no amount of stat is going to help against those abilities and they must instead be countered by other abilities/units.

A solution to this growing problem would be to have unit bonuses and abilities scale with military bonuses as well, which should help to preserve the strengths and weaknesses that each unit is intended to have. That, or simply change the numerical values to percentages as is done in Elvenar. For example, instead of Subs having a 150 defense bonus against artillery, have them take 50% less damage from artillery instead (this number is only an example). But in both of these examples, it shows that percentages are much better at scaling to the situation than flat, unchanging numbers are.

Finally, going to tag @Zarok Dai for this part. Since it hasn't been brought up/talked about for a while I'd like to once again push the suggestion that a unit's speed stat be made visible in-game. Is this something that's being worked on yet? Considering almost every unit in OF has a speed stat that does not match its movement, it's becoming very confusing to actually keep track of turn orders if you're someone who's used to the 'movement = speed' design of previous ages. I realize that making this value visible requires some tweaking of the in-game tooltips, but I feel like it's high time that it happens. Is the UI adjustment the only reason why it hasn't happened yet?
 
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