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Feedback [Feedback] - Oceanic Future Part 6

  • Thread starter Retired Community Manager
  • Start date

DeletedUser7779

Guest
Agreed that a unit with a weakness should be taking more damage than one that's neutral or has a resistance against your unit. However, the units are designed around base stats, where terrain and unit bonuses actually make a difference. In these instances, the bonuses would add up to cause the Scimitar to take more damage from artillery than a Sub. It's only once you factor in the huge military bonuses that are becoming increasingly common that the math starts to break apart.

At 0% bonus
Scimitar: 200 defense
Sub: 140 defense, 70 Dug In bonus, 150 defense against artillery = 390 defense
Turturret: 170 attack, 120 bonus against light = 290 attack vs light units

At 200% (x3) bonus
Scimitar: 200*3 defense = 600 defense
Sub: 140*3 defense, 70 Dug In, 150 artillery bonus = 640 defense
Turturret: 170*3 attack, 120 light bonus = 630 attack

As you can see, once you start counting bonuses, the base stats start to heavily eclipse whatever bonuses the unit may have. The 190 difference in defense between a Scimitar and Sub (against artillery) shrinks to only 40 at 200% bonus, and the Sub actually has 30 LESS if Dug In is factored out, compared to still being 120 ahead at 0% bonus. Likewise, the Turturret only has 30 more attack than a Scimitar's defense compared to 90, and 130 less attack than a Sub's defense compared to 220. I know this is a lot of numbers, but the fact is that if you're playing with and/or facing units with strong boosts, the bonuses become practically irrelevant. Everything becomes equally effective against everything, as strengths and weaknesses become heavily blurred. The only abilities that really matter now are flying and stealth, as no amount of stat is going to help against those abilities and they must instead be countered by other abilities/units.

A solution to this growing problem would be to have unit bonuses and abilities scale with military bonuses as well, which should help to preserve the strengths and weaknesses that each unit is intended to have. That, or simply change the numerical values to percentages as is done in Elvenar. For example, instead of Subs having a 150 defense bonus against artillery, have them take 50% less damage from artillery instead (this number is only an example). But in both of these examples, it shows that percentages are much better at scaling to the situation than flat, unchanging numbers are.

Finally, going to tag @Zarok Dai for this part. Since it hasn't been brought up/talked about for a while I'd like to once again push the suggestion that a unit's speed stat be made visible in-game. Is this something that's being worked on yet? Considering almost every unit in OF has a speed stat that does not match its movement, it's becoming very confusing to actually keep track of turn orders if you're someone who's used to the 'movement = speed' design of previous ages. I realize that making this value visible requires some tweaking of the in-game tooltips, but I feel like it's high time that it happens. Is the UI adjustment the only reason why it hasn't happened yet?

Absolutely agree. Exactly as you pointed out, the higher the defense boost, the more irrelevant the unit's Special bonuses.
And like I said, a defense of 600% is not uncommon in OF. I even have several hoodies with 800% +, so i basically can't really use those bonuses to my advantage...I like the idea of changing values to percentages, would need lots of testing though ;)

Back to the medusa bug ... or one of the medusa bugs.;)
I just had an enemy medusa kill my real unit instead of hitting a rogue again. Wish I had recorded a video but wasn't expecting it..
It was in GE at #59, second wave. I had 3 turtles one of which left at 1 health and 2 rogues. The medusa killed my weak turtle instead of killing a rogue. Something must have been changed in Medusas behavior....
 

DeletedUser5097

Guest
Agreed that a unit with a weakness should be taking more damage than one that's neutral or has a resistance against your unit. However, the units are designed around base stats, where terrain and unit bonuses actually make a difference. In these instances, the bonuses would add up to cause the Scimitar to take more damage from artillery than a Sub. It's only once you factor in the huge military bonuses that are becoming increasingly common that the math starts to break apart.

At 0% bonus
Scimitar: 200 defense
Sub: 140 defense, 70 Dug In bonus, 150 defense against artillery = 390 defense
Turturret: 170 attack, 120 bonus against light = 290 attack vs light units

At 200% (x3) bonus
Scimitar: 200*3 defense = 600 defense
Sub: 140*3 defense, 70 Dug In, 150 artillery bonus = 640 defense
Turturret: 170*3 attack, 120 light bonus = 630 attack

As you can see, once you start counting bonuses, the base stats start to heavily eclipse whatever bonuses the unit may have. The 190 difference in defense between a Scimitar and Sub (against artillery) shrinks to only 40 at 200% bonus, and the Sub actually has 30 LESS if Dug In is factored out, compared to still being 120 ahead at 0% bonus. Likewise, the Turturret only has 30 more attack than a Scimitar's defense compared to 90, and 130 less attack than a Sub's defense compared to 220. I know this is a lot of numbers, but the fact is that if you're playing with and/or facing units with strong boosts, the bonuses become practically irrelevant. Everything becomes equally effective against everything, as strengths and weaknesses become heavily blurred. The only abilities that really matter now are flying and stealth, as no amount of stat is going to help against those abilities and they must instead be countered by other abilities/units.

A solution to this growing problem would be to have unit bonuses and abilities scale with military bonuses as well, which should help to preserve the strengths and weaknesses that each unit is intended to have. That, or simply change the numerical values to percentages as is done in Elvenar. For example, instead of Subs having a 150 defense bonus against artillery, have them take 50% less damage from artillery instead (this number is only an example). But in both of these examples, it shows that percentages are much better at scaling to the situation than flat, unchanging numbers are.

Finally, going to tag @Zarok Dai for this part. Since it hasn't been brought up/talked about for a while I'd like to once again push the suggestion that a unit's speed stat be made visible in-game. Is this something that's being worked on yet? Considering almost every unit in OF has a speed stat that does not match its movement, it's becoming very confusing to actually keep track of turn orders if you're someone who's used to the 'movement = speed' design of previous ages. I realize that making this value visible requires some tweaking of the in-game tooltips, but I feel like it's high time that it happens. Is the UI adjustment the only reason why it hasn't happened yet?
Thanks for the explenation.:) I was already wondering why units how are suppost to be
strong against each other hardly make any diffrent in GE. Since GE lvl 4 is heaveliy
OP. Mining as much more att. I find that the cmap is so eassy that my army is OP,
but compared to GE... this only makes it vissible to me how OP GE armies can
be and are. I think if units bonusses also geting boosted by mil. boosts would
solve this and are very logical. Currently high bonusses battles in general are
more baste on how high the bonusses are and the skills with the strategies evolved
arround that.
 

DeletedUser8150

Guest
Agreed that a unit with a weakness should be taking more damage than one that's neutral or has a resistance against your unit. However, the units are designed around base stats, where terrain and unit bonuses actually make a difference. In these instances, the bonuses would add up to cause the Scimitar to take more damage from artillery than a Sub. It's only once you factor in the huge military bonuses that are becoming increasingly common that the math starts to break apart.

At 0% bonus
Scimitar: 200 defense
Sub: 140 defense, 70 Dug In bonus, 150 defense against artillery = 390 defense
Turturret: 170 attack, 120 bonus against light = 290 attack vs light units

At 200% (x3) bonus
Scimitar: 200*3 defense = 600 defense
Sub: 140*3 defense, 70 Dug In, 150 artillery bonus = 640 defense
Turturret: 170*3 attack, 120 light bonus = 630 attack

As you can see, once you start counting bonuses, the base stats start to heavily eclipse whatever bonuses the unit may have. The 190 difference in defense between a Scimitar and Sub (against artillery) shrinks to only 40 at 200% bonus, and the Sub actually has 30 LESS if Dug In is factored out, compared to still being 120 ahead at 0% bonus. Likewise, the Turturret only has 30 more attack than a Scimitar's defense compared to 90, and 130 less attack than a Sub's defense compared to 220. I know this is a lot of numbers, but the fact is that if you're playing with and/or facing units with strong boosts, the bonuses become practically irrelevant. Everything becomes equally effective against everything, as strengths and weaknesses become heavily blurred. The only abilities that really matter now are flying and stealth, as no amount of stat is going to help against those abilities and they must instead be countered by other abilities/units.

A solution to this growing problem would be to have unit bonuses and abilities scale with military bonuses as well, which should help to preserve the strengths and weaknesses that each unit is intended to have. That, or simply change the numerical values to percentages as is done in Elvenar. For example, instead of Subs having a 150 defense bonus against artillery, have them take 50% less damage from artillery instead (this number is only an example). But in both of these examples, it shows that percentages are much better at scaling to the situation than flat, unchanging numbers are.

Finally, going to tag @Zarok Dai for this part. Since it hasn't been brought up/talked about for a while I'd like to once again push the suggestion that a unit's speed stat be made visible in-game. Is this something that's being worked on yet? Considering almost every unit in OF has a speed stat that does not match its movement, it's becoming very confusing to actually keep track of turn orders if you're someone who's used to the 'movement = speed' design of previous ages. I realize that making this value visible requires some tweaking of the in-game tooltips, but I feel like it's high time that it happens. Is the UI adjustment the only reason why it hasn't happened yet?

Is there a working list anywhere unofficially even
 

xivarmy

Overlord
Perk Creator
You can already think of the unit and terrain bonus as being 'free boost' when the matchup applies by viewing them as a percentage of the base stat. These percentages have gone up with ages to compensate for the rising bonuses on base stats, but yes it still does break apart at the most extreme end.

An early example:
LMA Longbow Archer
Base 24/12
Rocks 4/0 (17%/0%)
Heavy 7/7 (29%/58%)

PE Sniper (one of the first very heavily specialised units)
Base 30/30
Bushes 0/20 (0/67%)
Forest 0/40 (0/133%)
Light 50/50 (167%/167%)

What stats like this served to do is make the unit very very good at taking out boosted light units where you still didn't have much yet. From this point forward this is often the point of antiunit boosts - to make sure if you're behind on boost you have a decent chance to kill a unit type with something.

PE Conscript (the most general purpose unit of the age apart from that sniper issue) :
Base 40/48
Entrenchment 10/10 (25%/21%)
Trenches 0/25 (0%/52%)
Close Quarters 20/0 (50%/0%)
Heavy 10/10 (25%/21%)
Artillery 25/25 (63%/52%)

Overall boosts haven't gotten much higher yet than they were in the early ages. But at the time PE was released boost proliferation wasn't too rampant yet.

CE Antiaircraft Vehicle
Base 90/80
Plains 25/25 (28%/31%)
Fast 80/80 (89%/100%)
Light 60/60 (67%/75%)

The first age where attack boost was made 'easily' available to get past 3 level 10 GBs you can see they've already adapted to mitigate the impact of high boost players by baking in ~30% of it to the most common terrain type and 70-90% to its unit type specialisations. You can also see a trend from this point forward where they're stingier on providing base defense than base attack - a principle directed towards avoiding near-immortal units.

CE Assault Tank
Base 105/90
Plains 20/0 (19%/0%)
Fast 30/30 (29%/33%)
Ranged 65/65 (62%/72%)

Reactive armor 4 was used as compensation for what would've normally been expected to be a durable unit via defense.

CE Strike Team
Base 100/80
Entrenchment 35/0 (35%/0%)
Forest 0/60 (0/75%)
Heavy 20/20 (20%/25%)
Artillery 60/60 (60%/75%)

A unit at the time that kindof fell short of the mark as the counter for the assault tank as it couldn't overcome the reactive armor in any way and often died in 2 shots to said tanks while taking 3 to kill them unless it could get buried in relatively-rare forest. Now with high level arctic orangeries and defense GBs they can fill the role they were probably supposed to at the time. Regardless you can still see the principle of 'if you use it the way we want you to use it, you don't need so much boost'.

FE Railgun
Base 160/140
Hills 50/0 (31%/0)
Plains 0/40 (0/29%)
Heavy 120/120 (75%/86%)
Light 80/80 (50%/57%)

FE Hovertank
Base 120/105
Fast 20/20 (17%/19%)
Ranged 100/100 (83%/95%)

By this point it'd become the norm for so much of a unit's function to be baked into the matchup bonuses. This provides some resistance to trivialisation of content via huge boost buildings - if you're only boosting half to two thirds of the unit's function it becomes harder to make a unit able to go beyond its function. i.e. How much defense does it take to get a hover tank able to survive 2 shots from even an unboosted railgun? Well the middle of the 4-6 range you're looking at 280/105 = 267% - or 167% defense boost already, it's just not practical.

AF Dragon Drone
Base 110/130
Bush 40/0 (36%/0%)
Rubble 0/40 (0%/31%)
Forest 0/60 (0%/46%)
Fast 100/100 (91%/77%)
Artillery 120/120 (109%/92%)

The dragon drone ends up being a unit that is very tied to either having extreme boost advantage or only being used against the units it's supposed to be if it's to deal much damage in a single hit or survive 2 hits.

AF Battle Fortress
Base 150/150
Hills 30/0 (20%/0%)
Plains 30/40 (20%/27%)
Forests 0/20 (0%/13%)
Light 70/70 (47%/47%)
Ranged 50/50 (33%/33%)

The battle fortress lacks much for remarkable modifiers, but does come with its baked in reactive armor 3 that makes the defense side unnecessary, and a decently high base attack that works well with normal levels of boost in your city.

AF Plasma Artillery
Base 180/140
Plains 50/0 (28%/0%)
Hills 0/60 (0/43%)
Houses 0/40 (0/28%)
Heavy 140/140 (78%/100%)
Ranged 100/100 (56%/71%)
Blast 3 - up to 36 additional attack at point blank range (up to 20%/0%)
The plasma artillery follows the railgun's lead by having high built in boost to be usable against boosted versions of its intended targets even if you don't have very much boost yourself.

OF Eel
Base 180/150
Rocks 70/70 (39%/47%)
House 40/0 (22%/0%)
Forest 0/45 (0%/30%)
Artillery 150/150 (83%/100%)
Ranged 160/160 (89%/107%)
A typical specialised unit, can take on most of what it's supposed to with below average boost... but!

OF Medusa
Base 210/140
Plains 50/0 (24%/0%)
Rocks 0/30 (0%/21%)
Heavy 180/180 (85%/129%)
Light 150/150 (71%/107%)
Blast 6 - up to +200 additional attack at point blank range, typically about +160 (76% to 95%/0)

The high value blast coupled with its attack range that's high enough to span multiple maps applied to it was a very sneaky way to bake in 'no really, i hurt everything that's not flying'.

Essentially you notice a trend where more and more of an unboosted unit's attack comes from its specialisations (but not its terrain). This seems an obvious response to our proliferation of attack boosts. by baking much of a unit's function into its unit specialisations content can be designed that's doable by people with low to medium boosts by providing a pretty high amount of boost against units its supposed to kill innately, and still not completely trivial for people with medium to high boosts because as noted by qaccy, the more boost you have the less valuable the next bit of boost is.

You also notice with some units that have that force field ability that they come with MISERABLE base stats. This is because in theory force field is ridiculously strong at high defense values.

They seem to be very aware of the varying extent attack/defense boost proliferation exists amongst high age players and changes to make it MORE effective seem unlikely. I hope. If anything it makes sense to make those bonuses larger still going forward while being flat. Perhaps the medusa's blast 6 is an experiment in that regard ;)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Finally, going to tag @Zarok Dai for this part. Since it hasn't been brought up/talked about for a while I'd like to once again push the suggestion that a unit's speed stat be made visible in-game.

I'll bring it up Tuesday when everyone is back in the office. I can't promise anything but I will do my best :)
 

DeletedUser8410

Guest
I didn't feel this warranted its own thread and wasn't sure where to post it, but I was wondering what's up with Aviary?

It seems unbalanced. Normally lower time productions should net you more than doing higher time productions?

Well, doing the 5 minute resource option actually gets you less than doing the 15 minute option. Found that interesting.

Ves5sXz.png


(Note: just getting some extra while I wait on the fp option to sync up with my collection time.)

Edit: Actually posted this in wrong thread, thought I was in general changelog. Can it be moved?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

qaccy

Emperor
It's rather embarrassing that it took me until just now to realize that the Gliders, despite being a unit with the Flying ability, cannot cross certain types of terrain. Up until now, I was under the impression that units with this ability were able to cross all terrain types with the same movement cost for each, and indeed the implementation up until the release of the Gliders has indicated this as well. How come Gliders have limited movement compared to other Flying units? I'm going to report it as a bug as well just in case, since it doesn't really make sense to me.

Side note: With this 'discovery' (months late, I know) this means that of the 11 OF units, Champion included, only four of them can cross water tiles: the Octopod, Crab, Nautilus, and Turturret. I still find that odd considering the theme of the age, especially with so many of the units visibly hovering over the ground.
 

DeletedUser4381

Guest
It's rather embarrassing that it took me until just now to realize that the Gliders, despite being a unit with the Flying ability, cannot cross certain types of terrain. Up until now, I was under the impression that units with this ability were able to cross all terrain types with the same movement cost for each, and indeed the implementation up until the release of the Gliders has indicated this as well. How come Gliders have limited movement compared to other Flying units? I'm going to report it as a bug as well just in case, since it doesn't really make sense to me.

Side note: With this 'discovery' (months late, I know) this means that of the 11 OF units, Champion included, only four of them can cross water tiles: the Octopod, Crab, Nautilus, and Turturret. I still find that odd considering the theme of the age, especially with so many of the units visibly hovering over the ground.

I find it particularly funny in the case of the Hydroelectric Eel. :D
 
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