Do Not Suggest [Suggestion] 1 Up Kit Improvements

[DeletedUser7649]

Hey all,

With the advent of the one up kit, I thought of a major improvement that could be made to it, I would love to hear what you guys have to say though, so please comment.

First a little bit about me, I play on the EN server, my main world is O and I go by the same name. I am one fo 'those people' that tries to get all the best GBs in IA. I have Gaea, DT, Arc etc, and I plan on staying in IA for a while longer to see what other GBs I can get my hands on (AO looks interesting )

With that out of the way let's look at the kit itself: Essentially it is a single age reno, now I have not been able to confirm (As I haven't won any from the event myself) but I have been told that they only allow you to reno UP TO your current age. This brings me to the suggestion:

Allow us to use the one up kit to reno one level at a time to an age above our current age.

Now this might seem like a really bad idea from the get go, so hear me out, and let's take a look at it in depth. Let's take a look at all the potential drawbacks of the idea by looking at each individual type of building that would be affected:

1. Bazaar/Aviary/Luau production buildings.
   • These buildings all have variable production so I decided to take a look at them first, specifically looking at fps, there will be no impact as they produce the same no matter what age. There are a couple other production options though: Crowns, goods, medals and supplies. Goods, supplies, crowns, and medals will be addressed under numbers 2, 3, 4, and 5 respectively.
2. Confectionary/Cider Mill supplies buildings.
   • Supplies production would be greatly influenced by having a higher age supplies building, by the time you add on boosts from LoA and RaH those are massive amounts! But why isn't this a problem? Because it isn't a problem currently. As an IA player with DT, I have collected over a million supplies, certainly there is no use for that many supplies, but the real question is, does it harm the game? I don't believe there are any harms from having excessive amounts of supplies, at least I can't think of one. They are completely useless in my case, and having another way to produce supplies won't affect anything significantly.
3. Oasis goods buildings.
   • Ah here we get to something worthwhile, goods. Now if you are like me, you probably wanted a Traz up early right? Chances are you paid fps for those goods (Some of you may have traded up or waited until PE, so kudos). So the question is: How will low age players producing high age goods impact the game? Answer: No Significant Impact. Once again we have to look back to DT, the ability to "Produce" higher age goods already exists within the game itself. Dt produces goods of any age, how is this any different if you have a higher age Oasis or otehr goods production building?
4. HoF.
   • Crowns, now let's ask a quick question, where do you get most of your crowns from? Answer: Probably GE or GvG map right? Higher aged map territories=more crowns. Could having a high age HoF be abused by having crown farm accounts? Sure, but that problem already exists now, and I doubt it would be come a substantial problem.
5. SOK/SOA.
   • SOK are a completely different issue than SOA, so let's look at the individually. SOK: Produces Fps and Coins. Does this already exists outside of a high age SOK? YES! Lotus... Basil... Chateau... etc (We are only looking at the coin production being affected as the number of fps is not age dependent) Now with Marks boost this could be a real money maker for low ages, the ability to buy tons of Fps right? Wrong. Fps go up in cost, and how many One up kits would it take to make an IA SOK AF? Alot... You really think people are going to be able to do that on more than one SOK? SOA: Medals. Medals would be very useful at low ages (My next expansion is 30k ugh) but does this have a significant impact? NO! Once agin there is another GB that does this for us: Arc (Gaea too) The Arc boost on medals is monstroud once you are looking at higher level arcs, even with moderate levels that I see in O (20 ish) you are looking at right around 10k medals for first place.
6. SOI.
   • Well this one should be interesting... SOI produces bps, but can you get those in any other way? Aiding (RF helps a bit too), and Donating. The ammount of bps that an SOI produces is so minimal compared to donations or even aiding alone that I think this is completely mitigated. In terms of coin production, the colelction is every 2 days, plus see what I said under SOKs above, not a major impact on anything.
7. Champions/Drummers/CGs
   • Now we come to the meat of the argument against going above your age. Goods, coins, medals and supplies, yeah no biggies, but now we have to discuss units. First fff, Anyone got a Traz? Anyone got a Zeus, COA, or CDM? Do you plunder your neighbors or at least attack them for points? Is that really gonna change if you have AF units? I'm not saying it won't be any easier to raid people if you have champs or what have you ages above your opponents, and sure it will help on defence, but what kind of an impact is that going to have? Probably minimal, you already attack them and win anyway. But how about GvG? Once again same thing here, if you are in IA with CA Champs, are you going to be of much use on the CA map? Probably not, your impact is going to be super minimal if all you have to attack with is rogues and champs of that age.

There is one major limiting factor of all of those upgrades that is worth mentioning HAVING THE KIT ITSELF
Is a CA player going to have enough kits to upgrade all of his SOKs, special buildings and the like up to AF? Probably not. This is a way to check the system if going above your age is allowed, there aren't many of the kits to begin with, so getting that many will be a pain. Consequently, because it will be so hard to get the kits, any potentially major impact will be mitigated by that fact alone.

So we have taken a look at most of the arguments that I can think of against the idea (Post a comment I can't think of all of them). So now what are the potential benefits of this idea anyway? As I see it there are two:

1. Spending:
   • Inno, just like any other company is concerned with their bottom line, so will this idea affect the purchase of diamonds negatively because of the saturation of high age goods, bps, or whatever? No, because of the natural limiting factor of kit availability. So will this increase diamond sales? Potentially. I know that quite a few people I know would shell out a couple hundred diamonds to age their Bazaar up a couple ages if they use it for goods (fps guys don't seem to care... wonder why... xD) I personally would be willing to shell out diamonds in the event to age my stuff up.
2. Something to Strive for:
   • Players always need a goal in order to stay involved, they need to be after that next tech, after the next expansion, that next GB, or that next GvG win. This would give those of us that are low aged something to strive for (FE production in BA or IA anyone?)

Ultimately, companies and their consumers must work together to make the service the best it can be, and Inno has done a pretty decent job in my eyes of reconciling the consumer with their bottom line (I don't want to debate this, only productive feedback please) As we look at this idea, to make One Up kits go above the players age, I hope that we can take a look and evaluate what, if any, impacts it might have on the game we love

Disclaimer for Mods: This is my first post so I don't know if I put it in the right section, feel free to relocate if necessary

 

[DeletedUser4446]

I appreciate the time you took to write this story, but no.
If this game allows iron age players to play with future age champions then everything will go horribly wrong. It just can't happen.

 

[DeletedUser7649]

I appreciate the time you took to write this story, but no.
If this game allows iron age players to play with future age champions then everything will go horribly wrong. It just can't happen.

How so? I would like to hear your reasoning

 

[DeletedUser4446]

I think the mods here would use the term "balancing".
It's already border line that lower age players are able to get a Dynamic Tower and stock up high age goods with a couple of clicks. Erasing the whole challenging part of the game that's dealing with collecting goods for your tech and progress. Just trade those aid goods down and voila.

So getting an Alcatraz in Iron Age is not even special anymore nowadays. When you're able to upgrade a champions retreat up to future era, and have Alcatraz and rogues, that means your neighbors will never be able to win an attack from you, you will stomp all over them without blinking an eye, you will blitzkrieg all over the continent and expedition maps, win a gazillion medals in empty PvP towers without competition... do I have to continue?
Sounds like a dream I'm sure, but that's not how the game is meant to be played.

 

[DeletedUser7649]

I think the mods here would use the term "balancing".
It's already border line that lower age players are able to get a Dynamic Tower and stock up high age goods with a couple of clicks. Erasing the whole challenging part of the game that's dealing with collecting goods for your tech and progress. Just trade those aid goods down and voila.

So getting an Alcatraz in Iron Age is not even special anymore nowadays. When you're able to upgrade a champions retreat up to future era, and have Alcatraz and rogues, that means your neighbors will never be able to win an attack from you, you will stomp all over them without blinking an eye, you will blitzkrieg all over the continent and expedition maps, win a gazillion medals in empty PvP towers without competition... do I have to continue?
Sounds like a dream I'm sure, but that's not how the game is meant to be played.

So as I see it there were three concerns you mentioned:

1. PvP
   • Currently (At least in my hood) I can plunder anyone with little to no troop loss. This wouldn't change with FE Champs at all, but I realize you are talking about the playerbase as a whole, so let's look at the real world so to speak: Generally in O most people attack whoever is below them, and aid everyone above, though sometimes they attack people above them. Let's work under the assumption that that is how you play, you attak the people below you, chances are you are still going to beat them with higher age troops, but how about the people above you? Their game won't change much either, they will still be able to beat you as well. As long as everyone has the same opportunity for the same troops, nothing changes. Due to the lck of kits right now, there probably would not be a major change in how anyone attacks and defends.
2. Continent Map/Expedition Map
   • Currently this is not too much of a problem either I don't believe. So obviously GE is alot easier with FE champs if you are in IA haha, but everyone in my guild up until about CE can beat GE lvl 3, it takes some knowledge of troop movements and exploiting that as strategy, but it can, and is, done on a regular basis. Same with the continent map, and may I point out that negotiation is an option on both of those.
3. Playstyle
   • Whenever a new player comes on global and asks for my advice I always answer "Play your own game, and don't let anyone tell you how to play." I am a firm believer that everyone has their own way to play, some may be considered unorthodox haha, but they still keep the user engaged in the end

With the first two concerns I don't see a major change at all, neighborhood PvP shouldn't change significantly, and neither will GE or Continent map to my knowledge. If there is something I missed or something you don't think I addressed fully please bring it to my attention

Also, thank you for writing again to clarify what you meant, it gave me greater context to understand your point of view

 

[DeletedUser]

SOI.

• Well this one should be interesting... SOI produces bps, but can you get those in any other way? Aiding (RF helps a bit too), and Donating. The ammount of bps that an SOI produces is so minimal compared to donations or even aiding alone that I think this is completely mitigated. In terms of coin production, the colelction is every 2 days, plus see what I said under SOKs above, not a major impact on anything.

the SoI produces BP up to the age of the player not up to the age of the building
or else a player in later ages with a SoI from bronze age would only get Zeus / Babel BP

so the only thing a higher SoI would bring is more coins

Champions/Drummers/CGs

would imbalance the game

that is why I give this idea a -1

I would like to start a new world and get a Arctic Future champions retreat in bronze age
but that is not what the game should be

 

[DeletedUser7649]

the SoI produces BP up to the age of the player not up to the age of the building
or else a player in later ages with a SoI from bronze age would only get Zeus / Babel BP

so the only thing a higher SoI would bring is more coins


would imbalance the game

that is why I give this idea a -1

I would like to start a new world and get a Arctic Future champions retreat in bronze age
but that is not what the game should be

First of all I would like to thank you for pointing that out about the SOI, I was not aware of that as I deleted all of mine

Secondly, and more importantly let's take a look at the idea of combat itself. There are four major aspects to combat in the game:

1. PvP
   • I already addressed this above but it is worth adressing again. In a normal hood you attack people, so let's assume a few things, let's assume you attack everyone below you for points, let's also assume that those people are mostly around your age as well. Let's also assume you win most of the time (75% seems fair). So you are attacking people near you in Age and points already, and you usually win already as well. How is having a higher era troop going to change anything at all? It won't, sure it will make it easier to win but the end result is the same your wins have not changed. Before you won, now you win a little bit more, that is not significant at all.
2. GE
   • The same thing applies to GE, let's assume you ordinarily beat level 3 (This is not a far off assumption as everyone in my guild up to CE has no problem with it). So with higher age troops, you will still win the same fights. Once again there is no major change.
3. GvG
   • No major impact here either, even with champs and rogues you can't be of much help in higher ages of GvG combat. Champs and rogues alone will not win you sectors unless you have ALOT of troops to burn. (Even then it's not guaranteed)
4. Continent Map
   • No major impact. Negotiations already exist, and chances are even if you wanted to fight you would be winning anyway.

In the first two examples (Which are the two I feel are the most major points of potential concern) There is Zero Impact in both cases you would already be winning those fights anyway, this would just make it a bit easier.

Perhaps if you could clarify your reasoning a bit more I might be able to respond better, I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion of imbalance.

Additionally, "Not how the game should be" Everyone playes their own way, and I don't believe there is a 'Right' way to play

 

[DeletedUser4446]

I disagree with all of the above, sorry.
You will win 100% of your fights against neighbors, without any losses at all. Same goes for expedition.
Iron Age players that can participate in all GvG maps is just strange. Imagine what the PvP towers in that neighborhood will look like.
Major impact on the continent as well, because you will win every fight with 8 champs, only in the tomorrow continent you might start losing a few units here and there.
Negotiations are ridiculously expensive in the higher eras, and definitely not affordable for iron age players.

You will be playing on god-mode, auto-fighting with your eyes closed. I realize that's exactly what you want to achieve, but your arguments are not going to get you there. I think you underestimate the strength of the future champ.

 

[DeletedUser]

PvP

• I already addressed this above but it is worth adressing again. In a normal hood you attack people, so let's assume a few things, let's assume you attack everyone below you for points, let's also assume that those people are mostly around your age as well. Let's also assume you win most of the time (75% seems fair). So you are attacking people near you in Age and points already, and you usually win already as well. How is having a higher era troop going to change anything at all? It won't, sure it will make it easier to win but the end result is the same your wins have not changed. Before you won, now you win a little bit more, that is not significant at all.

and how does your normal neighbors (without super advanced units) beat you ?
in a bronze hood with arctic future champions you would never lose when someone attacks you

that proves: your argumentation is wrong

GE

• The same thing applies to GE, let's assume you ordinarily beat level 3 (This is not a far off assumption as everyone in my guild up to CE has no problem with it). So with higher age troops, you will still win the same fights. Once again there is no major change.

with one AF champion + a few rogues I would be the god of iron age GE (is there a bronze age GE?)

tell me one player in iron age GE who wins all fights without losing one unit

so maybe I win the same fight, but 1000 times easier

for normal players that is more than a major change: that would be a game breaker

that proves: your argumentation is wrong

Continent Map

• No major impact. Negotiations already exist, and chances are even if you wanted to fight you would be winning anyway.

negotiation ?
please start thinking

you can never negotiate as far as you could fight with AF champions (lets say you are still in bronze age because that would then be my goal: be the first bronze age player who finished the complete map with his AF champions)

winning anyway ?
please start thinking

how far you would win anyway? one age advanced, two, if you say 3 you are a liar
with AF champions I could do (almost) all ages above mine

again a game breaker

that proves: your argumentation is wrong

There is Zero Impact in both cases you would already be winning those fights anyway, this would just make it a bit easier.

lol
and again: please start thinking

I sure would like to play it because would be funny

but I am not a hypocrite (or stupid) and say that there will be zero impact because of this change

I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion of imbalance

I am not sure how a thinking person can't see the imbalance

 

[DeletedUser2752]

With this improvement, you essentially have your military space set forever: 1 Highest-Age Champ Retreat + 3-4 rogue hideouts, or 1 Highest-Age Champ Retreat + 1 Rogue Hideout + 1 Alcatraz. There is a clear difference here as without it, you would always need either new buildings (and hence a redesign of your city) or a large set of Reno/1-Up Kits + large set of special buildings every age

 

[DeletedUser]

Is a CA player going to have enough kits to upgrade all of his SOKs, special buildings and the like up to AF? Probably not.

why should someone upgrade his SOK ? do they give more FP in higher ages ?
I don't even upgrade my lower SOK to my current age

all smart players would use it for the champions retreat
and they would use all kits they have or until they reached the last age

 

[DeletedUser7649]

and how does your normal neighbors (without super advanced units) beat you ?
in a bronze hood with arctic future champions you would never lose when someone attacks you

that proves: your argumentation is wrong


with one AF champion + a few rogues I would be the god of iron age GE (is there a bronze age GE?)

tell me one player in iron age GE who wins all fights without losing one unit

so maybe I win the same fight, but 1000 times easier

for normal players that is more than a major change: that would be a game breaker

that proves: your argumentation is wrong


negotiation ?
please start thinking

you can never negotiate as far as you could fight with AF champions (lets say you are still in bronze age because that would then be my goal: be the first bronze age player who finished the complete map with his AF champions)

winning anyway ?
please start thinking

how far you would win anyway? one age advanced, two, if you say 3 you are a liar
with AF champions I could do (almost) all ages above mine

again a game breaker

that proves: your argumentation is wrong


lol
and again: please start thinking

I sure would like to play it because would be funny

but I am not a hypocrite (or stupid) and say that there will be zero impact because of this change


I am not sure how a thinking person can't see the imbalance

I do apologize that I can't figure out how to quote individual parts of a reply, but this will have to do

so let's take a look at your response, and thank you for such a thorough response it was

1. PvP
   • How would your neighbors beat you? By one of two options, either moving up in the tech tree, or by aquiring kits like you. In your example of a bronze age hood no one would beat you? Well anyone that had the same idea you did (To upgrade champs retreats) definitely would.
2. GE
   • There is no bronze age GE as you have to be IA to unlock it, but I do see your point. I admitted that it would be alot easier to win with higher age units previously, my point was that it doesn't matter if it's easier or not because you are winning right now without them as such it wouldn't change the number of wins. I still fail to see how this is a game breaker, the number of wins DOES NOT CHANGE.
3. Continent Map
   • You asserted that you could never negotiate as far as you can fight with AF champions. I have no data on that, but that is currently one of my goals, to negotiate every province through AF while in IA, I am in IND right now, so it may be a while The point is this: The mechanism already exists within the game. You also said that if I said 3 ages ahead I would be a liar, well consider me a liar then, I beat half of the HMA sectors on my continent map with IA units. Once again I fail to see how this is a game breaker.
4. Zero Impact
   • No real argumentation under this point, see above.

I would like to note that you seemed to enjoy calling me "Stupid" and telling me to "Start thinking" I would appreciate it if you could at least keep this discussion somewhat civil. There is no need to resort to direct attacks on a person, if you don't agree then present a reason why.

 

[DeletedUser7649]

With this improvement, you essentially have your military space set forever: 1 Highest-Age Champ Retreat + 3-4 rogue hideouts, or 1 Highest-Age Champ Retreat + 1 Rogue Hideout + 1 Alcatraz. There is a clear difference here as without it, you would always need either new buildings (and hence a redesign of your city) or a large set of Reno/1-Up Kits + large set of special buildings every age

I do agree with that certainly, the question is truly how much of an impact the change will actually have based on that analysis. Alcatraz is a game changer, but even with a traz pumping out a ton of AF champs, they won't be particularly useful in GvG combat (only rogues and champs could be used in ages above your own). Additionally, the kits are inherently limited, there aren't alot to begin with so I think we can mostly assume for the time being that someone would only be able to upgrade one champ retreat, two at most at this time.

 

[DeletedUser7649]

why should someone upgrade his SOK ? do they give more FP in higher ages ?
I don't even upgrade my lower SOK to my current age

all smart players would use it for the champions retreat
and they would use all kits they have or until they reached the last age

Well first of all I appreciate that you didn't enjoin me to "Start thinking" or call me stupid again. Secondly, I mentioned SOKs as an example for the point I was trying to make: this change won't affect the game majorly because only a few buildings at most would be upgraded (Namely, champs), the number of kits is inherently limited by availability.

 

[DeletedUser4446]

I have to ask, do you have a city somewhere with which you reached arctic future and completed all provinces?

 

[DeletedUser7649]

I have to ask, do you have a city somewhere with which you reached arctic future and completed all provinces?

No I do not Sir/Ma'am Working on that right now though haha

 

[DeletedUser4446]

Okay that explains it then
Once you've completed timeline and continent maps, you will probably also look back and see the "dangers" of your proposition

 

[DeletedUser7649]

Okay that explains it then
Once you've completed timeline and continent maps, you will probably also look back and see the "dangers" of your proposition

I'm afraid I still don't see the danger But if you are already AF, then what potential danger is there? An IA guy with AF champs shouldn't be much of a threat

 

[DeletedUser5097]

Just what Midas did said. Plus if I buy much diamonds my benefit is to much. I can wait untill
the one up kits are coming, I buy much diamonds and apples, unlock the one up kits, buy the
number of one up kits (with some more) to bring a champion to AF. If you has no idea how
strong the AF champion is... it's a beast and beat many units even railguns are not realy
safe. With a army of AF champions I'm inviseble and on top of that, only people with the
same ''luck'' or mony can do this trick. It will bring a nightmare become real. This makes the
one up kit to powerfull and the diamond players to. From Iron age I can beat GE without any
problem and it gives my guild a ridiculous benefit and not only the guild, me to.

Do you has any idea how to stop a freacking AF champion with Irion age units?

Do you has any idea why you can been replace if the neighbors has a to high age from you? This can
be done even with 3 ages and do you know why? Your never aible to stop the attacks from them.
So with this unthinkable situation you can rule the game with diamonds and destroy it easy. Inno
doesn't want that diamond players has a to big benefit, with this the got it and even worster. Think
realy good about why you can been replace if you are underage of some neighbors and think realy
good what your doing if this idea become true.

Do you think it's fair if you are in Iron age and I'm in AF and we become neighbors and I destroy your
army with AF units, plunder what ever I can and you can't even damage my defense? This is the situation
you are creating if your make it possible to give (diamond) Iron age players the benefit of AF champions
or what ever age champion that is much higher then it's own age...

 

[DeletedUser4446]

But if you are already AF, then what potential danger is there? An IA guy with AF champs shouldn't be much of a threat

I already told you twice, if that's not enough to make you understand, then that's that. Let's agree to disagree.