Feedback Speedup of Early Eras test

[Juber]

I'm not sure what the end goal for inno is to just change up to EMA, these same people are probably going to quit regardless because inno's research book is obscenely long when you start at the bottom. It'd be interesting if there were worlds where you start out in an assigned era.

It was changes up to Colonial Age. Also, that's the reason it is AB-Tested: Does it have the desired effect? Is it harming the game economy? Are there unforeseen side effects? All these things can and will be figured out by this test.

 

[xivarmy]

of course the Colonial Age has a transition to require more at the end of the research again, so there is a curve. Before, it was very linear, now it stays very low up until early Colonial Age with a steeper increase there towards the end.

That's still not much of a transition compared to "roughly linear" across the first ages. That can feel like a rather steep wall. I'm reminded of conversations with newer players where we're describing goods in descriptive terms like "a little" or "a lot" and how different those descriptors turn out to mean to each of us! They have 500 of a good and think they're rich. I have 2000 of the same good and think i'm almost out. We clarify that what they were looking when they asked for a lot of granite for was really only 100 or 200 goods. What? that's not a lot. No problem, post the trade. Here I thought you were looking for 10k granite to replenish a hole in your guild treasury or something.

---

Now let's translate that back to "very low up until early colonial age". So ok, to transition you make mid-late colonial age instead the "barrier". It hasn't been increasing, but now suddenly it is! Not by a little, but by a lot! You weren't prepared to need large quantities of goods, you haven't been broken in to need increasing quantities of goods, and here they are. Suddenly a tech needs a whole 100 goods! You haven't needed more than 50 of anything up til this point. You more or less ignored goods to this point. You may well have ignored events (most new players either ignore them or at least don't put much focus in them). The market is stagnant (because that's what the FoE market is like nowadays) so if that good you need isn't one of your boosts, you might be in real trouble as to "how do i get so much of that?" If they haven't somehow met some more experienced players by then who can help them get on course, there's a good chance they're gone. And being as it was so fast to get there, they probably haven't.

 

[UBERhelp1]

I think this is something that has to be tested outside of beta, though. Generally the Beta server isn't going to have a lot of new players, usually more experienced players looking to test stuff.

 

[Yekk]

When the game launched, it already had Stone Age up to Late Middle Age, however, we did not have great buildings yet. So the ages were designed without those in mind. Of course they make it easier, but are easily possible without any boosts. And by the time you reach Colonial Age, you will have 2-3 event buildings providing a lot of boosts you could just dream of 10 years ago.

I know I was on at that time starting my first world in Aug 2012... FoE started on US in late May 2012 with GB's added in late 2012. You of course are saying if players use real money to get 2-3 event buildings as completing the questline will not be possible with the city they have unless they have what is expected of a CA player. Thank you for clarifying what we already knew. All your changes does is make new problems. Many have discussed those here. I will add that unless you allow second characters for existing players here most of what you want of this A/B is useless. Done on a "privileged" server with very few "new" players. The result you will see will be not indicative of what a real new player will do. Listen to what @xivarmy puts down. He sees outside the box well.

 

[CrashBoom]

I think it wasn't needed
during events players (especially those like the soccer event) players get a huge amount of FP and goods

I haven't counted the goods (I wouldn't be surprised if it was 10k) but FP I got over 1600 today from the chests

The early ages were created long ago, in a time where we did not have army boosts at all. So even if they are accelerated, you still will have no problem fighting there, as they were already designed to be easy, even without boosts.

and fights were only on map and against neighbors

Actually army boost were one of the first bonuses players were given. Zeus, CoA and CDM are some of the first GB's a player got and they are still very relevant.

and those were given AFTER colonial age was released

 

[Yekk]

I think it wasn't needed
during events players (especially those like the soccer event) players get a huge amount of FP and goods

I haven't counted the goods (I wouldn't be surprised if it was 10k) but FP I got over 1600 today from the chests


and fights were only on map and against neighbors



and those were given AFTER colonial age was released

Without those 3 GB's this game would have failed years ago. The fact is they are still powerful and relevant. They have stood the test of time. I am not a fan of the current event building going obsolete a few event later that exists now. I see players saying "all my high age players have dropped me as their friend" caused by the 3 new GB's breaking the social network. It is important that the developers and CM's think out side the box and consider the ways small changes make for large problems. That has been an ongoing problem here for almost 2 years now...

 

[Owl II]

There will be a lot of text below, and possibly with errors, for which I'm sorry, I'm not a native speaker. But I think this feedback will help developers better understand why so many beginners don't get to the older age and quit the game.

So, here are a huge number of ages in the game. But it is concentrated in older ages. Research tech tree, playing events and building GB is fun. There was nothing else in the game besides this in 2012, there were not even events. The first age contained the same functionality as the higher. But everything is diffirent now. A full game with all functionality is only available in top guilds at the moment. GE, GBG, live communication, GB leveling with high coefficients up to 2.0. Beginners can't get there. Why? The answer is simple. Treasury. Early ages do not produce goods in sufficient quantity for a full-fledged game.

So a beginners is forced to wander through lame guilds for years before he can apply to join a top guild. Well, this is not a blitz, you say. We have also been building our cities for years. Yes, that's right. But the problem is that the players who survived this early period didn't see the full game. And the full game is often not interesting to them. They think the quintessence of team play is to find 5 players to they take up places in GB. But those who could get to know and love FOE the way it happened with us before, don't reach the moment when they can see a full-fledged game. Messing in the sandbox bothers them earlier, and they quit.

Well, maybe it's a good idea to reduce the time for research at an early age. But I think it won't work. Why? Because the conviction is firmly rooted in this game that progress is the leveling of GB. And that you have to sit for years leveling GB before you can rise to the upper ages.

Conclusion: you see the problem, but incorrectly identify it. You think that players need to be raised to the older ages faster. While the challenge should be to give them a full gaming experience as early as possible. What do I mean? Any active, smart and passionate player could get into the top guild while in the Iron Age befor. He could stayed here for a long time, playing in an environment that fully meets his needs. This is not possible now for the points I wrote about. So reducing the research time will not help much. You need to come up with a way in which a beginners will get into a comfortable environment for him right at the start, and not later

 

[ShadowPhoenixx95]

That's how I see it:
The early ages were created long ago, in a time where we did not have army boosts at all. So even if they are accelerated, you still will have no problem fighting there, as they were already designed to be easy, even without boosts.
And when players reach higher eras earlier, they will have access to higher stats from event buildings earlier as well. So that equals out pretty well already.
Fighting should not be a problem, even with this speedup.

Now let's translate that back to "very low up until early colonial age". So ok, to transition you make mid-late colonial age instead the "barrier". It hasn't been increasing, but now suddenly it is! Not by a little, but by a lot! You weren't prepared to need large quantities of goods, you haven't been broken in to need increasing quantities of goods, and here they are. Suddenly a tech needs a whole 100 goods! You haven't needed more than 50 of anything up til this point. You more or less ignored goods to this point. You may well have ignored events (most new players either ignore them or at least don't put much focus in them). The market is stagnant (because that's what the FoE market is like nowadays) so if that good you need isn't one of your boosts, you might be in real trouble as to "how do i get so much of that?" If they haven't somehow met some more experienced players by then who can help them get on course, there's a good chance they're gone. And being as it was so fast to get there, they probably haven't.

So, here are a huge number of ages in the game. But it is concentrated in older ages. Research tech tree, playing events and building GB is fun. There was nothing else in the game besides this in 2012, there were not even events. The first age contained the same functionality as the higher. But everything is diffirent now. A full game with all functionality is only available in top guilds at the moment. GE, GBG, live communication, GB leveling with high coefficients up to 2.0. Beginners can't get there. Why? The answer is simple. Treasury. Early ages do not produce goods in sufficient quantity for a full-fledged game.

3 different People, 3 different Opinions, all narrowing down to the same Problem imho:
Fighting is waaaay easier than Trading, which is why everybody is forcing new Players to do the same Route, which causes lack in Produced (Treasury) goods, cause nobody cares about producing goods anymore as soon as they hit the Middle Ages. Because Army boost is the one and only thing the average Player cares about, making them think the Game was intended to be a wargame, rather than it being the Strategy/Evolving Game it is advertised as.

Which results in them going mad when something new is Involved that doesn't match that mindset, such as GE5 suddenly needing defense instead of the attacking stats they cashed built up for years, or the invention of a new Event Building or GB that doesn't provide army stats, so it is a viable Option for people playing any different than the Standart fighting style Youtubers advertised for Ages, instead of accepting that there might be different playstyles/strategies needing different things.

 

[Zuckerberg the Horrid]

Will this make it impossible to get turturrets/rocket troop/hover tanks from Indy, and if so, will the people who have already accomplished that have their troops taken away?

the announcement says completely new story.. this doesn't imply it is limited to the story up to and/or including colonial age.

Rehardless of the answer I'm not sure how I feel about it, I can see an argument for either way.. I mean infinite CFs were made useless for balance reasons and I have no doubt inno could do the same for rocket troop Indy players. I just feel it should be talked about..my guild's been recruiting lots of these players

 

[UBERhelp1]

Will this make it impossible to get turturrets/rocket troop/hover tanks from Indy, and if so, will the people who have already accomplished that have their troops taken away?

the announcement says completely new story.. this doesn't imply it is limited to the story up to and/or including colonial age.

Rehardless of the answer I'm not sure how I feel about it, I can see an argument for either way.. I mean infinite CFs were made useless for balance reasons and I have no doubt inno could do the same for rocket troop Indy players. I just feel it should be talked about..my guild's been recruiting lots of these players

AFAIK it's only a new story up to and including CA. It shouldn't affect what you currently have, but it may affect players who want to get higher age troops when starting with the new story and reduced tech tree costs... that may require certain techs to be researched.

In other words, if you want higher age troops easily, go for them now, ESPECIALLY if you are currently sitting in CA and have not yet started the InA story. They haven't been removed, and it's still possible, but there's another step that you have to take in planning to save as many of the super cheap and easily researchable techs as you can.

 

[Yekk]

I have noticed one item missing here. No one that has made a new character has posted here. That is to be expected as some may actually be brand new players and do not know the start has changed. Some maybe new to this server but do not know this forum exists. No affected player input is in my opinion bad sign. We have seen what happens when Inno is left on its own. I suggest Inno allows for the creation of temporary time limited characters to test this change. A/B testing was a poor choice. The original way is/was fully understood and unneeded.

 

[Boo...]

The meaning of the acceleration of players in low epochs is not clear. They will accelerate, what next? What guild would need a low attack player with no guild great buildings upgraded?
The meaning of low eras is to study the game, gain the necessary minimum to get into a good guild, while not ruining it and being a full-fledged warrior.

 

[drakenridder]

I have noticed one item missing here. No one that has made a new character has posted here. That is to be expected as some may actually be brand new players and do not know the start has changed. Some maybe new to this server but do not know this forum exists. No affected player input is in my opinion bad sign. We have seen what happens when Inno is left on its own. I suggest Inno allows for the creation of temporary time limited characters to test this change. A/B testing was a poor choice. The original way is/was fully understood and unneeded.

Good points, in the past Inno opened up a temporary 2nd Beta world. When changes where made to the early game. Another enhancement could be Inno reaching out to new players/players with a new world affected by the changes.

 

[UBERhelp1]

This isn't a change meant to affect established players. It simply isn't. Beta as a server is generally made up of more well-informed players, since very few players start FoE on Beta. It doesn't matter how many beta servers they open. It needs to be tested on live servers before we find whether the change will be kept or not.

 

[Yekk]

This isn't a change meant to affect established players. It simply isn't. Beta as a server is generally made up of more well-informed players, since very few players start FoE on Beta. It doesn't matter how many beta servers they open. It needs to be tested on live servers before we find whether the change will be kept or not.

Wrong, as most established players make new characters on other worlds plus more well-informed players are where you get feedback from...

 

[UBERhelp1]

Wrong, as most established players make new characters on other worlds plus more well-informed players are where you get feedback from...

It's not established or well informed players that this is for. How many times do I need to say this. It's also not based on feedback. It's trying to see whether new players have a higher retention rate than previously. Inno knows that established players are much more likely to play the game regardless of what happens at the start of the game. But for a new player, for a first impression, Inno wants to have them get farther into the game without hitting any difficulty so that they build up a habit of logging in and playing.

They don't care if you say, "Aww thanks! Now I can get to InA faster." They're looking to transition new players into regular players more effectively (as they should). For most of us on the forums, this is one change that doesn't matter too much (outside of some exceptions like changes in the questline).

As such, starting a new beta world to test this does nothing. In order to actually get data on what new players are doing, it must first be tested on live servers before being fully implemented.

 

[xivarmy]

As such, starting a new beta world to test this does nothing. In order to actually get data on what new players are doing, it must first be tested on live servers before being fully implemented.

Given the bug where a bunch of high era worlds were receiving parts of a new BA questline on live, they might be A/B testing it there too already.

 

[Yekk]

It's not established or well informed players that this is for. How many times do I need to say this. It's also not based on feedback. It's trying to see whether new players have a higher retention rate than previously. Inno knows that established players are much more likely to play the game regardless of what happens at the start of the game. But for a new player, for a first impression, Inno wants to have them get farther into the game without hitting any difficulty so that they build up a habit of logging in and playing.

They don't care if you say, "Aww thanks! Now I can get to InA faster." They're looking to transition new players into regular players more effectively (as they should). For most of us on the forums, this is one change that doesn't matter too much (outside of some exceptions like changes in the questline).

As such, starting a new beta world to test this does nothing. In order to actually get data on what new players are doing, it must first be tested on live servers before being fully implemented.

Let me be clearer then. It is only established or well informed players that can rate/give input to this. Inno's own record eliminates them.

If there are hacks, bugs, missteps then players that have ran the early levels are best to test this with. Look at this very thread. I do not see any input from any new player to this world. You put earlier that a live world may have been a better choice. I do not disagree but if it is to be here lets do it correct huh?

 

[qaccy]

Let me be clearer then. It is only established or well informed players that can rate/give input to this. Inno's own record eliminates them.

If there are hacks, bugs, missteps then players that have ran the early levels are best to test this with. Look at this very thread. I do not see any input from any new player to this world. You put earlier that a live world may have been a better choice. I do not disagree but if it is to be here lets do it correct huh?

New players don't typically spend more time on the forums than they do playing the game. Most players in general are completely 'silent' and never even interact with the forum. Likewise, Inno isn't necessarily only looking for and considering written feedback in any given situation. In this case especially, they're just looking for playing habits, which don't need to be spelled out in text for them to understand when they can just look at internal data.

But to put it most simply: Just because you don't see new players here, doesn't mean they don't exist. If Inno even initiated the test here, it must be because they determined that they're able to get useful data from it. None of us are really in a position to tell them that they're wrong when it comes to that because we can't see the data they have access to.

 

[Yekk]

New players don't typically spend more time on the forums than they do playing the game. Most players in general are completely 'silent' and never even interact with the forum. Likewise, Inno isn't necessarily only looking for and considering written feedback in any given situation. In this case especially, they're just looking for playing habits, which don't need to be spelled out in text for them to understand when they can just look at internal data.

But to put it most simply: Just because you don't see new players here, doesn't mean they don't exist. If Inno even initiated the test here, it must be because they determined that they're able to get useful data from it. None of us are really in a position to tell them that they're wrong when it comes to that because we can't see the data they have access to.

I never stated new players do not exist. Only that this thread does and does not work with how Inno decided here to do this test.