-
Dear forum reader,
To actively participate in our forum discussions or to start your own threads, in addition to your game account you need a forum account. You can REGISTER HERE!
Please ensure a translation in to English is provided if your post is not in English and to respect your fellow players when posting.
Feedback Space Age Jupiter Moon (SAJM)
- Thread starter Juber
- Start date
qaccy
Emperor
Honestly, I'm not sure what Inno could really do with GBs anymore. For one, adding new GBs doesn't really take anything away from the existing ones. There're already a ton of GBs and plenty of good ones. It'd be pretty hard to make them all 'good' without them also all being 'overpowered'. That piles on to the current 'problem' where new GBs are generally not seen as very good, especially in the ages they're attached to. That may be, but with so many other GBs currently available, how much does it matter? Advanced players in these later ages essentially get the goods to build them for free and have huge FP income, usually thanks to their other GBs, both mitigating the costs of these new GBs in the first place. How good should a GB be that's obtainable for virtually no cost?
In an unintended way, this actually supports some new GBs being better for lower-age players...they have a harder time acquiring the goods and/or FP to build them, but they also benefit a lot more from the effects of these GBs. It's weird how the players who're able to appreciate the bonuses more also have a harder time acquiring them, isn't it? But it could be that the wealth that the 'richer' players have also diminishes the impact a new GB can have, since they already have so much anyway. And IMO, something that gets these 'rich' players excited is probably something that's going to be bad for game balance in the long-term. Like...the Arc.
In an unintended way, this actually supports some new GBs being better for lower-age players...they have a harder time acquiring the goods and/or FP to build them, but they also benefit a lot more from the effects of these GBs. It's weird how the players who're able to appreciate the bonuses more also have a harder time acquiring them, isn't it? But it could be that the wealth that the 'richer' players have also diminishes the impact a new GB can have, since they already have so much anyway. And IMO, something that gets these 'rich' players excited is probably something that's going to be bad for game balance in the long-term. Like...the Arc.
Yekk
Regent
The idea of "Overpowered" existing is wrong. Top players now have 2K defense and attack. A new A/D GB will add only a few percent to that total. FP cost to level makes the new GB to expensive for the average player. It is cheaper for them and stronger to level the existing GB's. It is cheaper to level a high level CoA than a mid level Jupiter Moon GB.
But that is not the problem... Using "overpowered" to justify the creation of weak GB's is. Total player strength should go up as a game ages. Strong GB's are a must in the high ages as their leveling costs balance that strong ability. The few % that can run them to high levels should not be used to hurt the rest of players.
But that is not the problem... Using "overpowered" to justify the creation of weak GB's is. Total player strength should go up as a game ages. Strong GB's are a must in the high ages as their leveling costs balance that strong ability. The few % that can run them to high levels should not be used to hurt the rest of players.
Last edited:
qaccy
Emperor
What 'cost'? With the Arc and the proliferation of event buildings, the hardest thing about leveling up GBs is deciding which one to focus on, unless you're below a GB's age in which case getting the initial goods may be the most costly part. As I already said, GBs are not expensive to players at or above the GB's age. Maybe in absolute terms, but the most advanced players both have and generate enough FP that leveling a GB up just becomes another daily task. There isn't really any 'cost' associated with it.
Besides, in broad terms, every GB with a unique effect does still add to this nebulous 'player strength' because it provides something that wasn't previously available. Whether or not it's 'good', or how much impact it actually has, is rather subjective. Like the Temple of Relics is the only way to access relics from Guild Expeditions. How good are relics? That depends on the player, but it still adds to 'player strength' by providing something new that you can't obtain elsewhere. Not every new option may be good for everybody, but IMO having more options is always good.
Besides, in broad terms, every GB with a unique effect does still add to this nebulous 'player strength' because it provides something that wasn't previously available. Whether or not it's 'good', or how much impact it actually has, is rather subjective. Like the Temple of Relics is the only way to access relics from Guild Expeditions. How good are relics? That depends on the player, but it still adds to 'player strength' by providing something new that you can't obtain elsewhere. Not every new option may be good for everybody, but IMO having more options is always good.
Yekk
Regent
Focusing on an TA will cost an average players many time's the FP of their Zeus. Both add 1 A/D for 2 levelings. Getting a TA will not help the average player as much as a Zeus does. The FP costs negate that. Having rich players is not bad for the game. It is a goal to aspire too. Using them as an excuse to justify weak GB's is bad... How a player uses his FP is balanced by the GB age. High age GB's cost more to run up. The Arc did change how play is done. Not relevant as even devolvement guilds have great Arc leveling these days. Your aim weak GB's are needed fails as better balancing was available. Most games will lower/change age tech costs instead of wasting a high age GB to do so.
Finkadel
Marquis
Sell the unsellable...? Nah, that is not the case either.
GB fantasy wish list
Design a great building content
More then enough to choose from that is many times better then flying noob trap and the AI core. They're tons of stuff that they can still add and do with GB's. They just have to be looking in the right places for it. No rocket silence despite the space travel.
Generally I think a new GB these days should have a niche. Where it's not something everyone wants, but it is something someone wants. The opportunity for outright bad GBs I think is diminished by the fact they only do 1 an age anymore. If the 1 GB for SAJM was Statue of Gaea-like there would be every reason for outrage because people have waited a whole year for something new.
I think AI core does kinda hit a niche though not particularly well. It is a treasury building, and that's useful for the super-active GBG farming guilds that flip the entire map every 4 hours. But that's not terribly unique either - we already have 3 other treasury GBs.
Its unique benefit is a little *too* niche on the other hand - if it didn't have a charge limit and did apply to the continent deposits I think it'd be acceptable. It'd be useful for trying to rush through all of the higher ages, and it'd be useful for people who want to run more goods buildings in the colony but don't have the ore to do it. It wouldn't be something everyone wanted necessarily - but Jupiter players might build it just to get ready to get through Titan easier.
- but it doesn't apply to the map deposits; so it's only relevant for a short period of time when you're trying to get through ages quickly and aren't camping in one spot for a long while (by choice or force).
- but it has a charge limit that handicaps its use vs just having more synthesizers if you're someone who needs synthesizers. its % is too low to be motivating for having such a restrictive charge limit
Essentially it comes down to you'll build it if you want a treasury building, and its unique benefit may briefly be of value to you for some players.
They missed the mark with the SAV one as well where they just made it a not-so-effective goods & FP factory when it could've been something that actually appealed to players who like to run lots of settlements (instead it has nothing to do with settlements other than having to visit the settlement to pick up the reward).
As you've pointed out (and I've mentioned it as well), the "cost" to levelling a new GB is no longer a deterrent to top players with all the power creep - but you can still make it interesting in the sense of whether a building is worth the space for a particular person's playstyle.
qaccy
Emperor
You're missing the point that you're replying to. That point being that it doesn't really matter how much a GB 'costs' when the cost differences are ultimately meaningless in a practical sense. If a player considers a GB to be worth leveling, it's going to be built and leveled up regardless of what it costs, and specifically for advanced players the costs won't even really be felt. The only thing that's up in the air is specifically when that GB is worth focusing on. Using your Zeus vs TA comparison, that's a pretty easy one: the point at which leveling the TA is cheaper than Zeus for the same power increase. But similar comparisons are used for pretty much every pair of GBs, for the players concerned with optimization at least. "At which point does leveling this GB provide more of a benefit to me than leveling something else?" being the question here.
Anyway, I don't think every new GB has to be a complete game-changer, and I don't think they should be, either. GBs are a significant part of the game, yes, but they're primarily intended to be bonuses or additions to existing features rather than a standalone feature on their own. Still opinion here, but I think any GB that's considered a 'must build' is just as bad for the game as any GB that's considered 'worthless', because I don't think GBs should ever be de facto 'mandatory' to build. Again, the Arc is the textbook example of what something like that can do to a game.
mcbluefire
Baronet
Just add FP to the new GB and boom it will be highly desired by a bunch of players who aren't completely focused on attack boost for GbG. And why is GbG so desired if not for the FP? (in addition to it being the only thing that truly matters for ranking points anymore).
As it stands it's likely going to be a thing guilds start saying members 'have to have' in addition to Arc and Obs as it's only a 5x5 GB. Most get that the Atomium is too much of a space hog to be an okay "requirement." So why not give it something that helps the player in any age? Attack boost and/or FP? Is it too much to ask?
The existing direct FP GB's provide around 300FP/day for players who've pushed them through the funzone+ and all but Cape provide more than FP. This is not a lot of FP anymore...it would be nice to get another 50 to 80 FP/day from a SAJM GB.
As it stands it's likely going to be a thing guilds start saying members 'have to have' in addition to Arc and Obs as it's only a 5x5 GB. Most get that the Atomium is too much of a space hog to be an okay "requirement." So why not give it something that helps the player in any age? Attack boost and/or FP? Is it too much to ask?
The existing direct FP GB's provide around 300FP/day for players who've pushed them through the funzone+ and all but Cape provide more than FP. This is not a lot of FP anymore...it would be nice to get another 50 to 80 FP/day from a SAJM GB.
Last edited:
Owl II
Emperor
Oк, you got 50 FPS per day. Let's not say how much it costs. Where will you spend it?
Yekk
Regent
I did not miss anything... I will put up that almost no one on the beta has built the IA Core. They agree with the consensus here that is is worthless to almost everyone. You think that on your live world that will be any different? If you do you will be the only one... xivarmy says it better. It needs to be reaccessed. You put that Inno should be able to do whatever they want but if the players disagree you lose every time just as Inno does.
mcbluefire
Baronet
On my Arc until it's L180, then other GBs to take well beyond L80. 50 FP/day is a good boost that brings an additional 18,250 FP a year. Granted the GB will likely run me 90K FP to get to 50FP/day ... but there is no way I would have passed up on my other FP GBs which ran me over 138,165 FP to get them to produce 285FP/day.
Would I argue it should be able to produce upwards of 200FP/day at L100? Well,sure considering the FP investment and the fact that it's a SAJM GB. It should be something most players really want and definitely not something with a limited scope of getting through a few ages a little bit faster for 90K FP.
My point is, it makes the GB worth something for more players; players who want more daily FP that don't want to just depend on a good season in GBG. I'd be just as happy, however with the GB having an attack boost instead. Just something that helps players at all ages of the game.
Owl II
Emperor
That is, the ultimate goal of the game is mining FP? It doesn't matter how you use the FP. It is important just to get as much FP as possible... It's boring. Isn't it?
Zuckerberg the Horrid
Squire
I have a waiting list about 30 people long... the treasury goods combined with how expensive the new GBG map flipped my opinion on this, though I still wish it was something useful for Venus+. It's easier to talk people in to AI Core than in to the need to build an atomium since atomium is bigger and the secondary boost is arguably less useful.
Zuckerberg the Horrid
Squire
Combining these two, I don't see the problem with having a GB with insanely high costs to level - think 10x the current self-leveling costs with similar FP rewards, so no sweet spot, but also 10x the rewards of classic GBs like Zeus/COA/CDM
The St Patrick's Event over the past few years have proven that this type of gameplay-where earlier levels are inconsequential given the new power added by later levels-can be quite fun. Early game it's already evident from each age's goods, supplies coins and battle points being effectively worth 2x the prior age, but that trend ended right around when we started having problems with the game losing its fun.
I make around 1400fp per day, leveling most new GBs is no issue for me. But what's the problem with a GB that costs 10x and also gives 10% attack per level and greatly increases the power creep? After a few ages of that, people would start to delete the classic GBs for space (while they're still needed to build up to the point where buying in to these higher tier GBs is even possible), and voila, people's cities would actually start to reflect the ages they're in - I wouldn't have a COA in my city anymore because its boost wouldn't be useful anymore, regardless of it having been useful to have had initially (think 1M production/cycle vs 1Q production/cycle - building up that bakery was useful for a while!)
qaccy
Emperor
Is Inno really 'losing' though? I mean, if they actually were, they probably wouldn't be sticking to their guns on all of the features, changes, and additions that the forums have complained about and yet they've moved forward with anyway. I'd be looking at the stuff that they actually do 'listen' to players about as examples where Inno probably would have 'lost' if they'd ignored the feedback/data they were given. Considering Inno's gone ahead with new ages being relatively unchanged between beta and live releases, I'm guessing that the result of 'ignoring' players in these cases is relatively minor. The vast majority of players don't even reach these upper ages anyway before they move on to something else. That's why they focus so much on (and are more willing to take feedback into account for) events. Because events apply to pretty much all players, and events make them a lot more money. These two factors are why we now go more than a year between new age releases, yet we spend more than half the year with some sort of event running. Inno's got different priorities than the players who complain about new ages being 'underwhelming'.
Devilsangel
Baronet
initiatives:
SAV
Drone 10
Energy Cannon 60
Ghost Blaster 30
Power Dragon 25
Steel Fist 20
Champion 22
SAJM
Division Drone 10
Abyssal glider 65
Harpoon grenadier 35
Cavitation tank 30
Glacier hiker 25
Champion 22
CrashBoom
Legend
almost