Discussion Guild Battlegrounds Watchtower and Siege Camp Ability Re-balance

[DEADP00L]

Inno has just officially announced that the nerf will remain in beta-only testing until the end of the year.
I think (but this is my opinion only) that it will be implemented on the live servers very shortly before the addition of the new age, therefore during February, to decrease the number of complaints by installing this nerf without change other GbG settings.

I don't want to doubt Juber's words but since when was an adaptation (good or bad) detected on the beta before the live servers?

The disaster of the oracle? Reported from the second day on the FR server even before the beta version detected the flaw.

Concerns about grouping guilds by ID? Reported very quickly on the DE server when no word was said about the beta.

No testing on live servers? Yet the US server was entitled to the chateau system 1 month before the others.

But above all, as Ninjalin rightly points out, no word on possible other modifications to the GbGs!

 

[Yekk]

Regarding to this announcement, I maintain my point of view, all this testing taking so long in beta is useless, the outcome was known from the very beggining, no matter how many times they find excuses.

The very active players that went for higher stats for fights and especially in GbG(there are some exceptions regarding higher stats for GvG players or just for bragging) will slowly lose interest in playing this game, and planning to do something else, or find another games and forget at all about FoE.

The casual-constant players will find this a good and bad idea because it will drastically remove the time needed to do 250-380 fights (15-25 minutes according to how often You change the units and the device You are on and on its performance) and bad because it will reduce drastically the ammount of rewards, they will lose interest slowly too, I am in this situation in which I am not in the mood to open GbG at all, just doing sectors when I am around and asked by other friends in discord to help them secure some sectors, sniping/donating in 2-10 Gbs can help me gather 200-500 fps in less than 3 minutes.

The newer players that are f..d, they don't have the same benefits as other players had for 2 years with GbG at 100% in mid-top guilds from swaps.

Yes, the change was needed, from the beggining, but with 80% and slightly increased rewards.
Right now GbG is slow and not fun, You enter, do Your fights and see You tomorrow, we keep it active leaving all camps for all guilds in our matches, otherwise we will just sleep with the sectors the entire round.

Yet again nothing about any league ranking, leaderboard and matchmaking changes ...
Global Ranking system that is now for guilds doesn't reflect the truth at all, there are thousands of players that are playing only on mobile and they don't have any idea what GvG is ...

It puts what may be a big mistake into the next fiscal year. Nothing is harder to explain to a mega corporation than losing money in the 4th quarter...

That said @Juber how about a few changes before Jan. 1,2023? Profit is important and those guilds forced into 1K from platinum do not spend diamonds, do not build... They do in D-lite and Platinum. You can discern that by now. I know I have.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

@Juber, thanks for the update. Much appreciated.

 

[-Emperor-]

I think Inno is pretending that we don't understandthat this is just their childish excuse why they don't want to introduce this misunderstanding to live servers, the reason is one - their profit will come to naught due to the loss of interest of players in the game, as it happens on the beta version.
We can wait like this for another 5 years before they decide to launch it outside of beta. What other data do they need? Nothing in the beta version has changed with the introduction of this GbG "improvement", the best guilds still own the entire map and remain in 1000 LP, and the younger ones jump back and forth, as happened last year.
So let's applaud the developers for the brilliant idea with which they achieved... more boredom in the game

 

[xivarmy]

It puts what may be a big mistake into the next fiscal year. Nothing is harder to explain to a mega corporation than losing money in the 4th quarter...

That said @Juber how about a few changes before Jan. 1,2023? Profit is important and those guilds forced into 1K from platinum do not spend diamonds, do not build... They do in D-lite and Platinum. You can discern that by now. I know I have.

If you take his statement at face value and it's longterm data they're looking for, another adjustment is the last thing they'd want as it'd get a renewed "check-it-out" surge corrupting the data they're trying to gather on "what if it just stayed this way". Once they have the data they want they could attempt some tweaks that they're less unsure of to test quick public reactions.

 

[Yekk]

If you take his statement at face value and it's longterm data they're looking for, another adjustment is the last thing they'd want as it'd get a renewed "check-it-out" surge corrupting the data they're trying to gather on "what if it just stayed this way". Once they have the data they want they could attempt some tweaks that they're less unsure of to test quick public reactions.

I do not take Juber's statement at face value. GBG now or 2 1/2 months from now with the current nerf hurts Inno, its players, AND does not fix what is wrong. Fiscal year is the most realistic reason for no movement to live. Nothing new can be discerned in the next 2 1/2 months... Unless other avenues are also explored.

 

[DEADP00L]

Without targeting anyone, there are still some bad faith in your remarks.
Since the nerf, there are fewer and fewer solo-guilds or very small guilds in the diamond league.
I also found guilds made up of about forty members but only 2 or 3 of them benefiting in GbG, which we no longer see regularly in the 1,000 league.
Even if the matchmaling must be reviewed, there are (in my experience) fewer and fewer guilds unable to take 1 tile per day.

 

[xivarmy]

I do not take Juber's statement at face value. GBG now or 2 1/2 months from now with the current nerf hurts Inno, its players, AND does not fix what is wrong. Fiscal year is the most realistic reason for no movement to live. Nothing new can be discerned in the next 2 1/2 months... Unless other avenues are also explored.

Trends. Nothing we can talk about - we don't have the data. If you treat each season as 1 datapoint, it takes a whole lot of seasons to feel confident in the trend for various metrics (and the ones they're interested in are not necessarily exclusively the same as the ones you or I are). Especially if you have to throw out the first few as being dominated by people just checking it out.

 

[Yekk]

Without targeting anyone, there are still some bad faith in your remarks.
Since the nerf, there are fewer and fewer solo-guilds or very small guilds in the diamond league.
I also found guilds made up of about forty members but only 2 or 3 of them benefiting in GbG, which we no longer see regularly in the 1,000 league.
Even if the matchmaling must be reviewed, there are (in my experience) fewer and fewer guilds unable to take 1 tile per day.

There is a lot of bad faith in my comment. Building in Platinum now means dropping 3 SC to get to 57% reduced it use to be 3 gave 72% so yes less guilds are building there especially the smallest. But platinum was not the problem was it? Nor was any league except the few very top ones on most worlds where yes greed played in more than not. Fixing match-making does more, helps more than this simplistic nerf does. That does not mean that if adjusted I would not support it. It will be 5 months in before this has a chance to go to live.

Yes the one man guilds do not build now...why should they? So yes they do not get to 1K but that is not a win. It is a big lose.

 

[xivarmy]

There is a lot of bad faith in my comment. Building in Platinum now means dropping 3 SC to get to 57% reduced it use to be 3 gave 72% so yes less guilds are building there especially the smallest. But platinum was not the problem was it? Nor was any league except the few very top ones on most worlds where yes greed played in more than not. Fixing match-making does more, helps more than this simplistic nerf does. That does not mean that if adjusted I would not support it. It will be 5 months in before this has a chance to go to live.

Yes the one man guilds do not build now...why should they? So yes they do not get to 1K but that is not a win. It is a big lose.

Platinum was part of the problem - Specifically which guilds from platinum go to diamond. The ones that are best able to handle diamond, or the ones that just didn't sandbag.

This nerf affects the motivation to sandbag because you don't get the promise of "easy fights" anymore even if you do - so you may as well go up.

As well as affects the "little-guild-that-could" that as soon as they get siege camps rolling took over the map even though getting to that point required great initial effort - now they're not taking over the whole map once they get rolling - one assumes they're still building, but running out of attrition. The system works!

 

[Yekk]

Platinum was part of the problem - Specifically which guilds from platinum go to diamond. The ones that are best able to handle diamond, or the ones that just didn't sandbag.

This nerf affects the motivation to sandbag because you don't get the promise of "easy fights" anymore even if you do - so you may as well go up.

As well as affects the "little-guild-that-could" that as soon as they get siege camps rolling took over the map even though getting to that point required great initial effort - now they're not taking over the whole map once they get rolling - one assumes they're still building, but running out of attrition. The system works!

I suggest you play some higher GBG on beta where those same Platinum guilds are still in Diamond and still work hard to get back out. Only now they lose fights in both Platinum and Diamond... It use to be they built every other league to get fights in P understanding they would move to D. Rating point system still says they move to D if they place first and for most second and third. We have 2 guilds in my current 1K league with a single tile. How many would they have in a properly designed league. I hate to say it but you have no talking point.

 

[xivarmy]

I suggest you play some higher GBG on beta where those same Platinum guilds are still in Diamond and still work hard to get back out. Only now they lose fights in both Platinum and Diamond... It use to be they built every other league to get fights in P understanding they would move to D. Rating point system still says they move to D if they place first and for most second and third. We have 2 guilds in my current 1K league with a single tile. How many would they have in a properly designed league. I hate to say it but you have no talking point.

Neither do you. You're not in those guilds. You don't know what their last league was, or what their motivation is for doing what you deem unacceptably this league. Maybe they're happy. Maybe they don't care either way and are now moving up because those try-hard little guilds couldn't do as much in platinum.

I *can't* meaningfully play some higher GBG on beta - I'm not built for it - I have ok boost but no troop count and very little treasury production. I can spectate from inside some guild if some guild would want me - but I wouldn't want to because I hate not being able to meaningfully contribute.

I *can* at least state from experience being in small guilds that yoyo on live realms that this nerf will be a major change to how platinum operates there. I don't know if I'll still be able to win it at will (but at least it'll be fun to try for a little bit!)

Raw fight count was too high - rounds when I rack up 10k fights on live kill my motivation to play. Because if I'm going to play and that opportunity is there, why am I not taking it? And yet a couple hours later with 1k+ fights for a day under my belt, I don't want to touch the game. So that they now get less fights is not something I see as a downside. At all. I want less fights. While still saying I did all I could.

 

[Yekk]

Neither do you. You're not in those guilds. You don't know what their last league was, or what their motivation is for doing what you deem unacceptably this league. Maybe they're happy. Maybe they don't care either way and are now moving up because those try-hard little guilds couldn't do as much in platinum.

I *can't* meaningfully play some higher GBG on beta - I'm not built for it - I have ok boost but no troop count and very little treasury production. I can spectate from inside some guild if some guild would want me - but I wouldn't want to because I hate not being able to meaningfully contribute.

I *can* at least state from experience being in small guilds that yoyo on live realms that this nerf will be a major change to how platinum operates there. I don't know if I'll still be able to win it at will (but at least it'll be fun to try for a little bit!)

Raw fight count was too high - rounds when I rack up 10k fights on live kill my motivation to play. Because if I'm going to play and that opportunity is there, why am I not taking it? And yet a couple hours later with 1k+ fights for a day under my belt, I don't want to touch the game. So that they now get less fights is not something I see as a downside. At all. I want less fights. While still saying I did all I could.

Beta is not about boosts. It is about the testing. There are many development guilds (some which I have been in and keep track of) that would allow you to join for a league. I do play against those same guilds now when they move to 1K. I do not need to be in their chat to see their intentions which are quite obvious. I do not dispute 0 attrition has to change but also do dispute this nerf is in any way a fix.
It goes back to my much earlier "New Coke allegory" post. Coke-cola tested (over190,000 blind tests) for many months only to find they tested wrong. If they had done changes in the testing they would have saved the $30 million dollars of concentrate they flushed down the toilet. Extensive testing does not make a product better. Finding and fixing its problems does. Inno's "New Coke nerf" does not fix the real problems except in a very small subset of leagues and even then it has been shown 2 guilds can still checkerboard a map.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Raw fight count was too high - rounds when I rack up 10k fights on live kill my motivation to play. Because if I'm going to play and that opportunity is there, why am I not taking it? And yet a couple hours later with 1k+ fights for a day under my belt, I don't want to touch the game. So that they now get less fights is not something I see as a downside. At all. I want less fights. While still saying I did all I could.

An excellent point! I wonder how many top fighters in upper level guilds feel the same way? I doubt that you are alone.

 

[xivarmy]

Beta is not about boosts. It is about the testing. There are many development guilds (some which I have been in and keep track of) that would allow you to join for a league. I do play against those same guilds now when they move to 1K. I do not need to be in their chat to see their intentions which are quite obvious. I do not dispute 0 attrition has to change but also do dispute this nerf is in any way a fix.
It goes back to my much earlier "New Coke allegory" post. Coke-cola tested (over190,000 blind tests) for many months only to find they tested wrong. If they had done changes in the testing they would have saved the $30 million dollars of concentrate they flushed down the toilet. Extensive testing does not make a product better. Finding and fixing its problems does. Inno's "New Coke nerf" does not fix the real problems except in a very small subset of leagues and even then it has been shown 2 guilds can still checkerboard a map.

I don't disagree that this is unlikely to be a total fix. I also feel it's probably more than they needed to break zero-attrition by (it's more severe than any suggestion I ever made on the subject).

By the way they're running the test I understand what they're trying to accomplish though and why they're not making more changes in the middle of it. They're not looking for some superficial "feels" - but people's legitimate in-game reaction (median activity, retention, etc). Something that cannot be fully characterized by any of us from our personal experiences be they on beta or live - we're only exposed to a small cluster of datapoints each. They're essentially testing how the longterm play patterns of players change. The players that matter to the test are the ones that play beta like it's a real world, all the time. The longer the test goes, the less the noise that the "seasonal" testers who just want to test for information for their live realms plays into it.

It's not impossible after the test they might have a battery of other changes in mind that don't need as much testing. But if they introduce them into the middle of the test, it spikes the noise from the seasonal testers again It also calls into question which part of the changes were positive or negative. It's also unknown just how severe those other changes will be until it's seen how *this* change may partially-solve some of the other problems even if it doesn't address them directly as many of the problems arise not directly from the game but from how the community as a whole plays the game.

 

[Yekk]

I don't disagree that this is unlikely to be a total fix. I also feel it's probably more than they needed to break zero-attrition by (it's more severe than any suggestion I ever made on the subject).

By the way they're running the test I understand what they're trying to accomplish though and why they're not making more changes in the middle of it. They're not looking for some superficial "feels" - but people's legitimate in-game reaction (median activity, retention, etc). Something that cannot be fully characterized by any of us from our personal experiences be they on beta or live - we're only exposed to a small cluster of datapoints each. They're essentially testing how the longterm play patterns of players change. The players that matter to the test are the ones that play beta like it's a real world, all the time. The longer the test goes, the less the noise that the "seasonal" testers who just want to test for information for their live realms plays into it.

It's not impossible after the test they might have a battery of other changes in mind that don't need as much testing. But if they introduce them into the middle of the test, it spikes the noise from the seasonal testers again It also calls into question which part of the changes were positive or negative. It's also unknown just how severe those other changes will be until it's seen how *this* change may partially-solve some of the other problems even if it doesn't address them directly as many of the problems arise not directly from the game but from how the community as a whole plays the game.

The beta server which does not match live. From playing GE in world only, to players relocating from a world they did not like or had won the game, to the free diamonds. It does not a validate a test just as testing sweet new coke against its competitor was invalid. Any conclusion can be reached which when its goes live will show to be wrong. I have and do play on many worlds (in many countries) and have seen how GBG plays around the world. Greed is a real problem as is burnout. This nerf though replaces burnout with boredom. We do not need or want another Arena...

 

[Beta King]

An excellent point! I wonder how many top fighters in upper level guilds feel the same way? I doubt that you are alone.

Of course the top players get burned out cause it takes a lot of effort to stay on the top. The problem with this is the top progressing players should not be able to do "all they can do" in minimal time and just sit back and coast. If you want to be the top earner and do the max you should have to put in a lot of time to stay at the top not just coast with minimal effort and maintain top rankings. This breaks the competition.

 

[xivarmy]

The beta server which does not match live. From playing GE in world only, to players relocating from a world they did not like or had won the game, to the free diamonds. It is not a validate a test just as testing sweet new coke against its competitor was invalid. Any conclusion can be reached which when its goes live will show to be wrong. I have and do play on many worlds (in many countries) and have seen how GBG plays around the world. Greed is a real problem as is burnout. This nerf though replaces burnout with boredom. We do not need or want another Arena...

This isn't going to turn it into arena lol... Though I do wish they'd fix arena to be an interesting place beyond the start of a new world

It's not going to get any simpler via these changes - just slower (and possibly more complex if it turns a guild from a guild who can do everything they want to a guild that has to choose their battles).

FoE has always been a slow game - perhaps some new recruits addicted to GBG-candy-clicker may be lost, but it gives some hope to keep it a multifaceted game. GBG will still be worth doing. For those who value it as a test of their abilities it'll still be something to optimize for. For those who value it solely as a loot pinata it'll be less desirable, but oh well.

 

[Yekk]

This isn't going to turn it into arena lol... Though I do wish they'd fix arena to be an interesting place beyond the start of a new world

It's not going to get any simpler via these changes - just slower (and possibly more complex if it turns a guild from a guild who can do everything they want to a guild that has to choose their battles).

FoE has always been a slow game - perhaps some new recruits addicted to GBG-candy-clicker may be lost, but it gives some hope to keep it a multifaceted game. GBG will still be worth doing. For those who value it as a test of their abilities it'll still be something to optimize for. For those who value it solely as a loot pinata it'll be less desirable, but oh well.

Your glowing report does not match what most of this thread or the moderated thread says. Mine does...

That being the nerf hurts unless it is fixed. I wish fixing a car was as easy as putting wiper blades on but they need tires, oil, and other maintenance. Join a larger guild and check it out then comment.

 

[xivarmy]

Your glowing report does not match what most of this thread or the moderated thread says. Mine does...

That being the nerf hurts unless it is fixed. I wish fixing a car was as easy as putting wiper blades on but they need tires, oil, and other maintenance. Join a larger guild and check it out then comment.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Nothing I've said today is "glowing". I've admitted I can't assert the real impact. It's largely neutral "wait and see".
I've avoided this thread the last couple months because everything we feel on both sides has been said before and it just goes in a vicious circle - often devolving into personal attacks. I do hope it'll go live in some form, but that's purely from my personal perspective.

I was only commenting on the test running longer and it being understandable. After they have sufficient data to make a prediction of the impact there might be more changes, but they can't gather the data they want on the impact of a specific change if they're changing other things too.

That they're taking this test serious can only be a positive if you're hoping it *doesn't* go live. Because if they weren't serious about the test they probably would've sent it live ages ago.