Discussion Juber's gbg suggestions

[Balinor]

Right now on live most worlds have between 2 and 4 guilds as you say moved up to fast from platinum to diamond

Do you work for inno ? I doubt it
Theres no way you have this info
You would have to play on every server every world
All you know is your game your worlds your experiences
You dont speak for the whole community neither does Juber

. I completely disagree that GBG is broken. Juber is wrong on that.. Completely wrong

You both shared an opinion on a subject
Your opinion is just as wrong as Jubers as is mine as is every opinion on here

 

[Yekk]

Do you work for inno ? I doubt it
Theres no way you have this info
You would have to play on every server every world
All you know is your game your worlds your experiences
You dont speak for the whole community neither does Juber

You both shared an opinion on a subject
Your opinion is just as wrong as Jubers as is mine as is every opinion on here

Wrong... Just be in discord with players of many worlds... How GBG is played at the moment is just as I say on live.... Heck you don't even play anymore do you? I looked.. You seem to have 4 live worlds and on all you have not logged on in forever. Now if you did log on to your strongest character you would find 67 guilds in diamond. You can message any top guild there to see that of the two of us I do know how GBG is played...

 

[xivarmy]

To run well GBG takes a team. removing free fights completely will end GBG.. As I have said many times before it is hard to keep leaders in GBG. Changing how attrition is handled will have most of each worlds major guilds mad at you. Figuring 50 guilds in diamond each league with 25-30 using the flip system generally used that is a lot of players... I completely disagree that GBG is broken. Juber is wrong on that... Completely wrong. It does need tweaking but changing attrition would make it worse not better.

There's also many on the verge of quitting because of how it is now. It exhausts people. If the pressure was taken off it to some degree, it might be easier to keep your leaders.

As for where I play, which you questioned:
- Used to play in a permanent-1000 guild on one world that engaged in all the swapping crap. Wasn't the strongest of the 1000s, but it kept getting stronger. I left because that guild got too big for my taste and I wanted to cut back on my playtime and it was the least fun of the worlds I play - it's exhausting being in a super-active guild.
- Do play in a small-medium yoyo platinum-diamond guild on one world. To not jump back to diamond we'd have to do *literally nothing* almost because of all the other guilds trying not to go back to diamond. One platinum round we had *4* different guilds begging us to let them derank in the standings by taking all their stuff. And as that platinum guild that often ends up owning the map because noone else wants to, I honestly don't care that much how much people want to take back for me. We always have plenty of fights without any arrangements in platinum. And usually get skunked in high-diamond (though depending on the particulars of a given round sometimes we do stick around for a round in diamond as there's 4-6 guilds getting skunked and the differentiation between them is typically how much they were left alone. And low-diamond is probably about perfect for us but we're seldom there.
- Also play in a tiny retirement guild (usually 3-4 people) on what used to be my main world. We can go diamond there too if we put in the effort. 2nd round with the elephant map I ran ~12000 fights to finish one off since we were given the opportunity. It was exhausting - stupid irresistable free fights. I haven't played much there since. Usually we hang around in platinum there. This is honestly what I consider the optimum place for a guild to be to be having fun in the current working of GBG but you have to be pretty tiny to avoid having too much power to stay in platinum most of the time.
- Also play in the new world, where GBG is honestly just fine. Before you get a bunch of guilds capped at 1000, things work pretty well. Currently in Gold there.

 

[Yekk]

There's also many on the verge of quitting because of how it is now. It exhausts people. If the pressure was taken off it to some degree, it might be easier to keep your leaders.

As for where I play, which you questioned:
- Used to play in a permanent-1000 guild on one world that engaged in all the swapping crap. Wasn't the strongest of the 1000s, but it kept getting stronger. I left because that guild got too big for my taste and I wanted to cut back on my playtime and it was the least fun of the worlds I play - it's exhausting being in a super-active guild.
- Do play in a small-medium yoyo platinum-diamond guild on one world. To not jump back to diamond we'd have to do *literally nothing* almost because of all the other guilds trying not to go back to diamond. One platinum round we had *4* different guilds begging us to let them derank in the standings by taking all their stuff. And as that platinum guild that often ends up owning the map because noone else wants to, I honestly don't care that much how much people want to take back for me. We always have plenty of fights without any arrangements in platinum. And usually get skunked in high-diamond (though depending on the particulars of a given round sometimes we do stick around for a round in diamond as there's 4-6 guilds getting skunked and the differentiation between them is typically how much they were left alone. And low-diamond is probably about perfect for us but we're seldom there.
- Also play in a tiny retirement guild (usually 3-4 people) on what used to be my main world. We can go diamond there too if we put in the effort. 2nd round with the elephant map I ran ~12000 fights to finish one off since we were given the opportunity. It was exhausting - stupid irresistable free fights. I haven't played much there since. Usually we hang around in platinum there. This is honestly what I consider the optimum place for a guild to be to be having fun in the current working of GBG but you have to be pretty tiny to avoid having too much power to stay in platinum most of the time.
- Also play in the new world, where GBG is honestly just fine. Before you get a bunch of guilds capped at 1000, things work pretty well. Currently in Gold there.

It does get exhausting which is why a smaller number of guilds per league is preferable in diamond. On my worlds few guilds want 5 flips a day like we used to do. But many more can do 3-4 flips than when the current system came into play a couple months after release on live. Most ask for and get a split map where 4 guilds break the map in halve. Sometimes a fifth guild will make the map 3 on one side 2 on the other. Much easier to work 1/2 a map. Only way to see which of our ways works the best is to try both. For that we would have to have a developer step up. I do not expect such to happen. We both see changes would be wise.

My beta guild is platinum but gets forced to diamond. My suggestion of founders having veto on moving up stops the need to tank a league

 

[xivarmy]

It does get exhausting which is why a smaller number of guilds per league is preferable in diamond. On my worlds few guilds want 5 flips a day like we used to do. But many more can do 3-4 flips than when the current system came into play a couple months after release on live. Most ask for and get a split map where 4 guilds break the map in halve. Sometimes a fifth guild will make the map 3 on one side 2 on the other. Much easier to work 1/2 a map. Only way to see which of our ways works the best is to try both. For that we would have to have a developer step up. I do not expect such to happen. We both see changes would be wise.

Saw the 4-way splits a lot in the one world where i was in a constant-1000 guild (sometimes as much as 5-way arrangements). But in the other worlds I'm in when i'm in 1000 it's usually one of a 2-guild split or a 1-guild domination being fed by the 2-3 most favored weaker guilds. I think it comes down to the temperament/age of the world.

I personally detest arrangements on principle. I don't want to farm - i want a game. But given how lucrative it can be I certainly understand how some view farming as the most important aspect.

My view on the farming aspect of it: if GBG is what I'm farming and I'm not enjoying it, what am I farming for?

 

[Yekk]

Saw the 4-way splits a lot in the one world where i was in a constant-1000 guild (sometimes as much as 5-way arrangements). But in the other worlds I'm in when i'm in 1000 it's usually one of a 2-guild split or a 1-guild domination being fed by the 2-3 most favored weaker guilds. I think it comes down to the temperament/age of the world.

I personally detest arrangements on principle. I don't want to farm - i want a game. But given how lucrative it can be I certainly understand how some view farming as the most important aspect.

My view on the farming aspect of it: if GBG is what I'm farming and I'm not enjoying it, what am I farming for?

The real world works on arrangements. GBG works much the same. It began as a war but quickly morphed into its present form and war is to expensive. My main world guild had the biggest treasury in that world and even we were seeing shortages. Our treasury even with GvG is larger now than then. Which goes to my dislike of the new GB being expensive SaJM when the guilds that need it are to poor to run it to where it fixes their treasury

 

[zookeepers]

I think the idea of having a soft cap is pretty good, making top guilds face each other more frequently and have some degree of competition. I don't really think that there is any reason this system should be applied to the guilds currently in the gold league or so.

I am not for an idea of avoiding keeping sectors with 159/160. This strategy is kind of a only weapon that a weak guild can use against massive guilds. If we can no longer do that, smaller guilds would be easily wiped away. Big guilds can keep sectors safe with 150/160, 135/160, 110/160, but small guilds cannot, because if you stop at 110/160, you have to race big guilds for the 40 left points, which often would end up in a loss. Big guilds can also build and scrap fortress, which can only be done by abundant diamonds.

 

[jovada]

To run well GBG takes a team. removing free fights completely will end GBG.. As I have said many times before it is hard to keep leaders in GBG. Changing how attrition is handled will have most of each worlds major guilds mad at you. Figuring 50 guilds in diamond each league with 25-30 using the flip system generally used that is a lot of players... I completely disagree that GBG is broken. Juber is wrong on that... Completely wrong. It does need tweaking but changing attrition would make it worse not better.

You speak if you are one of the big whales who fight all day without attrition.
Making GbG more attractive for everyone will not end GbG but will attract more players.
Do you really think that adjusting some things will make the big farmers leave GbG ? No way they still will farm but maybe less then before.
I remember all the changes made in GvG to stop exploiting all backdoors (moving hq , granting freedom etc............) I never saw a guild quit GvG because of the changes.
So i think adjustments in GbG will not lead to a destruction of GbG but only make it more fair for everyone.

 

[CrashBoom]

I would also quit if my 50k fights in one season GBG would be reduced to 5k

 

[jovada]

I would also quit if my 50k fights in one season GBG would be reduced to 5k

You are not, and if so well one big egoïstic whale less then hahaha

 

[Thunderdome]

The Battle of the Little and Single Player Guilds

Thought I would share my journey up the ladder. This is at the Silver League where half of the map are trying to scramble all over.

Guild at #1 is a single person guild who kept focus on gathering as many empty tiles that other guilds are not taking. Guild #2 (my guild) is also a single guild who not only had focused on taking empty tiles (and not stepping on #1's toes and vice versa) but also retaking tiles from #3 who keeps on engaging. Guild #3 is a small guild (about 3-4 players).

Guild #2 was #1 for about the first 6 days until #3 started to take tiles (instead of following the route that the other two guilds were doing). Guilds 2 and 3 had fun in trading blows with each other (as expected). Again, it's all about the numbers and how many are active enough to engage with a good stock of what they got. This has been proven, even for me that took it to 50-51 attrition for the day (negotiating and fighting with CE stuff). Three players engaging can easily take two tiles from me if they kept focus on 50 in the current x/70 league.

Guild #4 just took one tile and is "parking" for the moment. Trying to see if they will take another tile since I did saw their flag on an empty tile.

Guilds #5-#8 either had started their journey or just sat there without going further. Seeing the points there, I am going to assume they will remain in Silver since each one that got promoted gained 263 points from when they were in Bronze. And, 25 from 263 will be 238 points (and only if those points are reduced). Ten more seasons like this will have them demoted to Bronze, which will be about 20 weeks (or 5 months) from now. Again, this is an assumption as I do not know if they have the same thing in place like the PVP Arena where if a guild does not participate for a certain criteria they are automatically out.

Now, if we go with the "forced" promotion from one league or another, I do not see how that can be accomplished unless the map is entirely dead and 2 or 3 guilds had only taken one tile (to get the reward and the points) each. Even when I was just starting many weeks ago with just less stuff, my single guild did not get over the hedge: no points and no rewards (I only got up to 20/40 on that one). Currently, the #1 and #2 guilds will advance into Gold next season (as it only takes 88 points to get the 353 needed). #3 and #4 will remain in Silver for next season with #3 very close (they need 13 more points to advance if they don't stop).

After this GbG, I am going to stop (maybe just taking one tile to get the rewards for what placement I get). The season after, I going to stop entirely to see if those points I get for being dead is going to throw me upwards (should be downwards or reduced) or not. Also I am going to see if I am going to get kicked off that I have to start again (wonder if from bronze, lol).


Current GbG Map - Silver League (Image reduction due to sizing of forum limits)

 

[xivarmy]

After this GbG, I am going to stop (maybe just taking one tile to get the rewards for what placement I get). The season after, I going to stop entirely to see if those points I get for being dead is going to throw me upwards (should be downwards or reduced) or not. Also I am going to see if I am going to get kicked off that I have to start again (wonder if from bronze, lol).

I can answer most of these questions for you from fooling around on diamond mines:

If you stay "active" by doing at least 40 progress, you will get the points and reward chest for the tie without taking a sector. I did find my way from silver to gold without taking a sector at one point
If you go "dead" by doing *no* progress, you will be booted out and downranked as if you got 8th rather than tie-4th/5th.

 

[Thunderdome]

If you stay "active" by doing at least 40 progress, you will get the points and reward chest for the tie without taking a sector. I did find my way from silver to gold without taking a sector at one point

So, let me get this straight. By doing anything at least 40 progress, the guild will still get points and rewards? Wow, I can probably alleviate some stress, lol. I know I am doing some of this stuff as a test to see what the hub-bub's all about, but sooner or later, I will need to wind down (real life stuff going about these days that made me a very busy old man).

If you go "dead" by doing *no* progress, you will be booted out and downranked as if you got 8th rather than tie-4th/5th.

Thanks for answering this little gem of a question since I was scratching my head on this when I saw "forced" promotions in play and was wondering if such a thing is in place, else the map will be full of dead guilds.

 

[xivarmy]

So, let me get this straight. By doing anything at least 40 progress, the guild will still get points and rewards? Wow, I can probably alleviate some stress, lol. I know I am doing some of this stuff as a test to see what the hub-bub's all about, but sooner or later, I will need to wind down (real life stuff going about these days that made me a very busy old man).

That's been how it was from the start yes. I suspected they might've made it a little more stringent at one point, but I suspect I really just forgot to finish my 40 that season; because I've gotten away with just 40 again on some diamond mines since then.

(And yes, that does leave open a loophole edge-case where you could have a fleet of non-sector taking guilds all pumping points into the system by only ever doing 40 progress; it's pretty rare though - the vast majority of the tied-at-zero guilds in copper/silver aren't making it to 40)

 

[Yekk]

You speak if you are one of the big whales who fight all day without attrition.
Making GbG more attractive for everyone will not end GbG but will attract more players.
Do you really think that adjusting some things will make the big farmers leave GbG ? No way they still will farm but maybe less then before.
I remember all the changes made in GvG to stop exploiting all backdoors (moving hq , granting freedom etc............) I never saw a guild quit GvG because of the changes.
So i think adjustments in GbG will not lead to a destruction of GbG but only make it more fair for everyone.

Actually no, I run the guild but I have players that you would consider whales. Those whales make the maps work which gives me my fights. Remove them and all that is left is what happens in platinum. My goals here are to get the middling guilds some fights. Just because you are a lousy chess player does not mean you can't have a fun time IF you are allowed to match up correctly... Right now we have such in GBG. Pushing everyone to what is platinum is dumb...Why break what works just to appease a lousy chess player... Much better to allow that player the league they want. Not to force them to move up.

 

[jovada]

Those whales make the maps work which gives me my fights. Remove them and all that is left is what happens in platinum.

That makes no sense, so you can't fight if you don't have the whales? What do they do? Taking a sector halve and let the other halve for the rest of the guild to fight? Or is no one allowed to fight before they start? Or they allow you to take the first sector with full attrition and wait till they have camps?

Why break what works just to appease a lousy chess player...

Lousy chess players???? Not every new or recent player start with an arch level 180,alca level 100 and over 1500% attack bonus. Those players are not lousy or lazy at all and do maybe 30 or 40 fights a day , but are forced to wait every two seasons to do some fights when two fighting clubs control the map and switch with each other and leave sectors at 159/160.

 

[beelzebob666]

One thought I recently had:
there always are players that take the hit for others - as in: they often fight when there only is one or fewer siege camps - other players tend to more often fight when there are only three or more siege camps and therfore get more rewards.

Usually that is the case in "smaller" guilds that have to start fresh each morning, as the other guilds raze the map over night. Some players just like to fight in the morning, other simply only have time in the afternoon/evening.

How about there was a possibility to get a reward whenever someone else creates progress - the possibility could be proportional to the player's current attrition value (maybe in logarithmic or root fashion) and invers proportional to the number of guild members. To counter the increase of rewards, the rewards per enconter could be slightly reduced - otherwise (when siege camps are nerved) the current rewards could stay the same and the additional rewards for other guild mates progress would counters the "loss" of what players would have made in the old system in part.

 

[Owl II]

That makes no sense, so you can't fight if you don't have the whales? What do they do? Taking a sector halve and let the other halve for the rest of the guild to fight? Or is no one allowed to fight before they start? Or they allow you to take the first sector with full attrition and wait till they have camps?

What you describe is disgusting. I even know that not all of this is fiction and fantasy. Because I've seen it. But imagine it happens otherwise. "Whales" spend their time, nerves and diamonds so others can come at a convenient time and do their 30-40 fights without straining. If you are unlucky, it does not mean that there is no such thing.

Lousy chess players???? Not every new or recent player start with an arch level 180,alca level 100 and over 1500% attack bonus. Those players are not lousy or lazy at all and do maybe 30 or 40 fights a day , but are forced to wait every two seasons to do some fights when two fighting clubs control the map and switch with each other and leave sectors at 159/160.

They're not lousy or lazy, maybe. They are just not ready to make an effort to play with the "whales" on an equal footing. It's a game, after all. And the effort should not be excessive. But the "whales" were not born like that either. They just did something that your "chess players" are not ready for. Then tell me, will it be fair if your not lazy and not lousy players get effortlessly what the whales have been working on for several years?

 

[Owl II]

I'm still disappointing by something else. No one. None of you including the initiator did not remember that it was not intended as a feeder. And none offered anything to change that. Everyone just wants a useful feeder for themselves

 

[Amdira]

Just because you are driving a Ferrari doesn't mean you are allowed to forbid other cars to use the highway or tell them to drive same speed or just to disappear. Neither to tell the architects how to build the highway to make it most comfortable for Ferraris. Developers still have to make it comfortable for the majority and this, no matter how much you wish it to be or how much effort you spent to afford it, aren't the Ferrari drivers.