Discussion Change the League divisions in GB tournaments

[Noname 5.0]

Anyway it’s good to get things off my chest n voice my opinion.
No matter what we debate about nothing is going to change everything is going to be the same.
The main reason I wanted to voice my opinion was for the second week in a row our guild has come up against 3 last battleground n 4 this battleground of guilds with more than 60+ n 80 members that have all been under the rank of #23 .
For us it is not fun . But for the the other guilds with lots of active players it looks like they are having great fun .
Still don’t know why the players in this discussion are so afraid of having fun playing against guilds of equal size and abilities. But that for you to understand not me as for this discussion group thank you for listening and letting me voice my opinions. Since they won’t let us go down a league we will more than likely met up on the field of battleground.
Good luck in life and all that you pursue.
But for me this discussion is over. Peace be with you all.

 

[Owl II]

Again Owl you failed to answer my question by turning it to being a selfish thing I want done.
I asked you why are you afraid of going to a higher league.


I keep telling you that they won’t let us stay in the platinum.

This is why there should be a league higher than diamond for more advanced guilds.

So again I ask you why are you afraid of going to a higher league for more advanced guilds?

But what really is my nightmare is a season in which there will not be a single strong guild. And I have 50 players who want to fight something. I know what it is. I saw.

I have already written above what I am afraid of. Obviously, it was written incorrectly? What word did you not understand?

 

[Noname 5.0]

I did not understand why you are not in favor of being in a league with equally strong guilds as your so your nightmare will never come true.
Nothing is going to change but thank You for debating this issue with me.
When we met again on the field of battleground I’ll do my best to give you providences to recapture.
I wouldn’t want a nightmare like that to come true no one does.

 

[xivarmy]

Size limits don't make much sense - the reason tiny guilds are in diamond is because they run over the competition in platinum - so they belong in diamond more than some of the weaker big guilds. So it wouldn't make sense to hold them to lower leagues or require them to pad their numbers with non-contributing members (the majority of "big" guilds that aren't "top" guilds are really just < 3-person guilds with a bunch of noncontributors making them look big)

The core problem is that there just isn't 40+ guilds of reasonably equal parity on any given world. Hell if there was 16 I'd be shocked. So ultimately someone has to be the top guilds fodder. You can change the system for who the fodder is, but they're ultimately going to start trying to avoid it artificially bleeding the problem over to other brackets.

This core problem trickles down to high platinum at least by now - where guilds actively try not to win because they know they don't want to be in 1000. So where "platinum is a fun fight every second round" used to be a reality - it isn't anymore either. Platinum every second round is an easy win. And Diamond every second round is a season off. About the only way to get weak enough to get real fights (i.e. everyone trying to do their best rather than either the top N collaborating to max out individual rewards (1000-diamond, sometimes low-diamond) or most guilds trying *not* to win (platinum/low-diamond)) these days rather than walkovers or a focus on farming I think is to go to a 1-person guild where low Platinum is an appropriate challenge.

I suspect what needs to happen to get people back in the spirit of things is to:
- 1) Limit the individual rewards. Could nerf siege camps by a cap or multiplicative stacking. Could just gut the drop rate to be say 20% of a prize instead of 50%.
- 2) Boost the end of round rewards to compensate. Winning should be the point, not how many fights you can get in.
- 3) Slow movement down to make yoyos less violent - a guild should not shoot from platinum straight to 1000-diamond. I would suggest +/- 70 as the maximum movement for a 1st/last place (i.e. +10 for each guild you beat and -10 for each guild you lose to where currently it's +/- 25). To put this in perspective, the MMRs roughly correspond to percentiles of guild. 900+ is roughly the top 10% of guilds. So when you can gain 175 for a single 1st place, that's moving you 17.5% up the ranks. For one round's win. So it's quite plausible before you were ranked much too low for your real power, and now you're ranked much too high.

 

[angelgail]

is there a way to match up the guilds like there is in GE ? that would help i think

 

[Yekk]

is there a way to match up the guilds like there is in GE ? that would help i think

The best GBG guild on my main world is ranked 20th there. That said they aim all parts of their guild to making GBG work for them. Players are limited to certain ages, they must do GBG each league, GB's to help the treasury are required of them.

In comparison, my guild there ranks second and in almost every metric would seem to be a better GBG guild. We are the third best GBG guild. Player stats play in but the human factor is more important. The first ranked guilds player are just more enthused with GBG. I do not think it would be easy to setup matchups using metrics in GBG. Possibly number of wins, total fights done, total tiles owned and re-owned, speed to the center on first day could all be used.

BUT the better guild may just get a league where two lesser guild gang up on it. That guild would then get stuffed with absolutely no chance of getting un-stuffed for the league. That is the reality of GBG right now.

 

[CrashBoom]

is there a way to match up the guilds like there is in GE ? that would help i think

no

 

[Hiep Lin]

only guilds with size 61-80 are allowed to play diamond
guilds with 41-60 will end in platinum
guilds with 21-40 end in gold and can't move up
and guilds with 20 or less only in silver

then small guilds only face small guilds or big guilds which have so many inactive player to consider them small

Why could a weak guild of 80 members be smashed into a "diamond" but a strong guild of 39 members would be forced to pulvarose the others in "gold"

 

[CrashBoom]

reason
- a small guild is per definition not good enough for leagues higher than gold. player are too often complaining about full guilds too strong for them. they want guilds of their size (or bigger guilds half inactive to be as good as they are)
- and a weak guild wouldn't be in diamond. at least they would need to be strong enough for 901 LP

so weak 80 guilds will fight strong 39 guilds in gold
because that is what the players from small guilds want: only opponents they can beat and no good full guilds

so stop quoting me
this is not my discussion. ask the OP why he isn't good enough for diamond league
because if he would be good enough this discussion wouldn't have started

The best GBG guild on my main world ...

when 50+ guilds all have the same 1000 LP how can there be one best GBG guild
the system clearly says they are all equal

and what would best even mean ?
making most fights ?
having highest score at the end of the season ?

 

[xivarmy]

Another thought on "slowing down movement" rather than using the exact same system but with lower numbers (which would have a side effect of a new-but-strong guild taking much much longer to reach their "real" strength)...

Add a roundly rating decay. Let's say 5% for argument. How much does this change things?

First off a couple examples:
1000-diamond, 7 team group. End of round calculations, first everyone drops to 950, and then the usual gets applied from there. So:

1st - 950 + 150 = 1100, Stays 1000
2nd - 950 + 100 = 1050, Stays 1000
3rd - 950 + 50 = 1000, Stays 1000
4th - 950 + 0 = 950
5th - 950 - 50 = 900, Drops to Platinum (would've stayed low-diamond)
6th - 950 - 100 = 850, Drops to Platinum
7th - 950 - 150 = 800, Drops to Platinum

Now, the followup rounds to that:
4th would likely get another 7 team group, would start from 903 after decay and need 2nd to climb back to 1000-diamond (previously would've stayed 1000 anyways)
5th would be in an 8 team platinum group at 900, start from 855 after decay, and need 1st to climb back to 1000-diamond (previously would've needed 3rd to go back to 1000)
6th would be in an 8-team platinum group at 850, start from 808 after decay, and be unable to climb back to 1000-diamond next season (previously would've needed 2nd to go back to 1000)
7th would be in an 8-team platinum group at 800, start from 760 after decay, and be unable to climb back to 1000-diamond next season (previously would've needed 1st to go back to 1000)

End result, the cycle has at least been broken to give two seasons between 1000-beatings for those that never belonged there in the first place. While teams that are on the fringe might more frequently get seasons away from it.

Perhaps more interesting though is what will change to the eventual overall distribution of guilds with such a decay added:

Steady State​	Now​	With 5% Decay​
1000-Guilds​	8.3%​	0.4%​
Diamond​	14.1%​	1.2%​
Platinum+​	37.3%​	8.0%​
Gold+​	65.6%​	36.0%​
Silver+​	88.0%​	77.0%​

This seems perhaps a little too extreme given the number of guilds (there might be difficulty making even a 2nd diamond group eventually which would lead to complaints of sameness about the groups from some of the top guilds), so perhaps 5% decay is too much already. Alas, the method I used to simulate the steady state of each system is not easy to experiment with different values for the decay. I might play around with a different method that also represents the anomalies of finite numbers of guilds better (this method assumed there was always enough guilds to fill groups of 8)

Still, even in this extreme state most guilds only get knocked down 1 league from where they are now (Some diamonds would drop to high-gold)

Given that many will not be tickled pink about being knocked down a league, this could be combined with some people's suggestions to create an even-higher league. Tune the decay such that the share in "new diamond" stays the same, but the amount in the new highest bracket will not eventually inflate like diamond did. Then again, it might take long enough for the deflation to happen that people just don't see it coming.

 

[Owl II]

when 50+ guilds all have the same 1000 LP how can there be one best GBG guild
the system clearly says they are all equal

The system says a lot of nonsense

and what would best even mean ?
making most fights ?
having highest score at the end of the season ?

This is easy now that matching by ID has been canceled. The guild which not lose to anyone. Everyone knows on our server who it is. I think you know who is the strongest you have as well.

 

[Yekk]

Xivarmy said:
"when 50+ guilds all have the same 1000 LP how can there be one best GBG guild
the system clearly says they are all equal

and what would best even mean ?
making most fights ?
having highest score at the end of the season ?
[/QUOTE]"

Every world has a few guilds with excellent treasuries capable of flipping the maps 5 times a day...Of those one will go the extra mile and limit eras of their players, require set times for their players to do GBG, literally turn GBG into a job for all of its members. It will easily be able to by its prowess force the other guilds to its will...

That will be the number one GBG guild... Not a difficult concept to embrace. I see it often.

 

[Darrth Eugene Vader3]

when 50+ guilds all have the same 1000 LP how can there be one best GBG guild
the system clearly says they are all equal

There are stats that Inno could collect and present to judge who is the best among the "50+ equals" guilds besides the tie stat of 1000 LP that everyone has...

• Number of seasons on Diamond League:
  • Overall Record: Which guild has the record of Total Number of seasons at Diamond League?
  • How long each guild have stayed on Diamond without bouncing down to Platinum?
  • Which one(s) have the longest current streak (Current longest number of seasons since last bounce down to Platinum) ?
  • GOAL: Prove the guild is a real Diamond League Member
• Number of 1st, 2nd and 3rd positions won
  • At Diamond League (similar to the GE trophies)
  • Positions won at Platinum or other Leagues to be counted separately
  • GOAL: Prove the guild is a top contender in this League
• Highest number of victory points / sectors achieved in a GBG season,
  • At Diamond League.
  • Again victory points/sectors won at other Leagues to be counted separately
  • GOAL: Prove how well the guild can dominate a season in this League.

Other stats can be proposed.

 

[Yekk]

Actually Crashboom stated that but the reply broke when I posted a reply. I agree on all you put Darrth Eugene.

I would add Diamond should be 5-6 guilds per league at most. The rest of what was said is as important. At 8 guilds is is way to easy to stuff 5-6 of those guilds. A smaller (less guilds) would increase goods costs and equalize more of diamond. Best/strongest guilds could still run maps but others would get chances

edit for mistaken credits

 

[xivarmy]

Actually xivarmy stated that but the reply broke when I posted a reply. I agree on all you put Darrth Eugene.

I would add Diamond should be 5-6 guilds at most as the rest of what was said is as important. At 8 guilds is is way to easy to stuff 5-6 of those guilds. A smaller (less guilds) would increase goods costs and equalize more of diamond. Best/strongest guilds could still run maps but others would get chances

actually crash stated your broken quote

 

[DEADP00L]

In the Diamond League, more particularly, there are systematically 2 or 3 active guilds which do not have the rhythm of the regulars. Everyone is wronged, the 3 "small" can hardly do anything and the 5 "big" are slowed down due to lack of competition.
Why shouldn't diamond leagues be made up of a maximum of 6 guilds?

 

[Yekk]

In the Diamond League, more particularly, there are systematically 2 or 3 active guilds which do not have the rhythm of the regulars. Everyone is wronged, the 3 "small" can hardly do anything and the 5 "big" are slowed down due to lack of competition.
Why shouldn't diamond leagues be made up of a maximum of 6 guilds?

It would fix many problems. It would spread out the strongest guilds, give a much higher chance to middling guilds to have a productive league, it would even help the littles. The lower ranking point gain/loss would even help some.

It would also most likely end the 150K encounters a league or more that the best GBG guilds see. Slow up players running their arcs to 180.

 

[napodavout]

HELLO
Lots of interesting ideas.But I think that several problems with also different solutions
Not enough differences between the MMR, those who train too many guilds in the upper levels is blocked a real challenge
In the diamond league, not enough challenges for the more powerful guilds, a simple solution go from 4 hours of blocking the sector taken to 2 hours.
To be fairer between those who engage in cdb against those who play less, to create a new league is to ecard between the MMRs, there is no gap between them.





BONJOUR
Beaucoup d'idées intéressantes . Mais je penses que plusieurs soucis avec aussi des solutions différentes .
Pas assez de différentes entre les MMR ,ceux qui entraine trop de guildes dans les niveaux supérieurs est bloque un vrai challenge .
En ligue diamant pas assez de challenges pour les guildes plus puissante , une solution simple passez des 4h du blocage du secteur pris a 2h.
Pour être plus juste entre ceux qui s engage en CDB contre ceux qui jouent moins ,créer une nouvelle ligue est faire un écart entre les MMR ,est pas aucun écart entre eux

 

[Darrth Eugene Vader3]

Why shouldn't diamond leagues be made up of a maximum of 6 guilds?

League maximum limit could be much more than 6 guilds. It would be boring to have to face the same 5 opponents over and over and over each season.

The Diamond League could have 4 or more groups of 7 guilds each, and each new season could have a a different set of the guilds still remaining in the League after the previous season.

 

[xivarmy]

It would fix many problems. It would spread out the strongest guilds, give a much higher chance to middling guilds to have a productive league, it would even help the littles. The lower ranking point gain/loss would even help some.

It would also most likely end the 150K encounters a league or more that the best GBG guilds see. Slow up players running their arcs to 180.

It would not end that at all. They might occasionally get a slow round. But there's a surprising number of guilds able to flip sectors 4+ times a day - even some of the "medium" ones when the big ones don't have their preferred dance partners.