Feedback Space Age Titan

[Beta King]

If they want the truth about titan they could offer a one time only one-age-down kit when all techs are completed ... then open the doors wide and watch the stampede

Great idea, you have my vote! I would stock up goods for GBs then move back down.

 

[qaccy]

The problem the devs have created by nerfing heavies into canon food, is that no suitable fast-counter unit exist. Heavies used to tank fast's first wave of attacks and punished them after. With 3 range, stealth on rare terrain, little movement and above all else too little defence specs/lack of good defensive ability, they're unable to fulfil their role as a good anti-fast unit.
If the devs would buff the SAT heavies to get their range restored to what was in SAM + buffing their defence specs + good defence terrain bonus on plains, they're making a good chance to be a serious fast-counter. Another option is to swap out stealth for contact! + range restored to what was in SAM + better defence specs. This way fasts would once more have something to fear them for, not laugh at them and shut them down with 1-2 shots. Even octopods of OF are more scary for fast than TAS' heavies.

Example:

TAS heavy: range 8, ability contact! Stronger defence specs
Counter: art. + ranged, they're out ranging their contact!
Countering: fast, if they're attacking the heavy likely survives and hits back really hard, even when using SAJM's fast

Ranged countered by: fast

For what it's worth, when it comes to countering a fast unit, attack range hardly matters. Fast units move before anything else anyway, and no other unit is so immobile that it can't reach a fast unit to retaliate on its next turn. Even with their low attack range, there isn't enough distance between a heavy unit and a fast unit that just attacked it that it can avoid retaliation, unless the heavy unit is actually defeated. Bearing this in mind, more direct defensive bonuses are arguably the better way to hypothetically improve heavy units than by increasing their attack range. Increased survivability is all they'd need to be more effective in battle, not attack range.

Unfortunately this doesn't apply to Champions, though. They actually do have very impressive defenses, but unlike the 'normal' heavy units of each age, they don't get reduced movement costs on most terrain types which makes them fairly unreliable attackers. Not having Keen Eye isn't doing them any favors, either. If Champions had their movement costs adjusted to match the 'normal' heavies of each age, they could actually be pretty potent attackers even without Keen Eye.

 

[Atokirina]

Those premium expansions are becoming as expensive as the ones in Elvenar.

And let's add a lot of them too ...

I hate it so much that they do everything they can to squeeze extra money out of us.

Spoiler: Compare the last 2 ages with the previous era's

 

[drakenridder]

For what it's worth, when it comes to countering a fast unit, attack range hardly matters. Fast units move before anything else anyway, and no other unit is so immobile that it can't reach a fast unit to retaliate on its next turn. Even with their low attack range, there isn't enough distance between a heavy unit and a fast unit that just attacked it that it can avoid retaliation, unless the heavy unit is actually defeated. Bearing this in mind, more direct defensive bonuses are arguably the better way to hypothetically improve heavy units than by increasing their attack range. Increased survivability is all they'd need to be more effective in battle, not attack range.

Unfortunately this doesn't apply to Champions, though. They actually do have very impressive defenses, but unlike the 'normal' heavy units of each age, they don't get reduced movement costs on most terrain types which makes them fairly unreliable attackers. Not having Keen Eye isn't doing them any favors, either. If Champions had their movement costs adjusted to match the 'normal' heavies of each age, they could actually be pretty potent attackers even without Keen Eye.

Actually yes and no. The fast easily out range them. It's no secret that contact! Counters fast the most effective. Heavies with a range of 3 will not even with contact! Be able to do a thing. The other issue is that heavies are so weak, that fast can easily take them down before they even get the chance to strike fast. This is why steel wardens were such formidable counters: great defensive specs + force field + decent range.
The range shouldn't be underestimated. Even crabs from OF have a bad range (6) with an arguable good defensive ability. Yet they struggle to be an effective counter.

For those reasons, for heavies to be a good counter they need both a decent enough range, great defence specs and an ability that aid them in countering fast. The letter like you've also mentioned. Stealth on rare terrain doesn't do anything. For those reasons I rather see heavies getting buffed back to what the steel wardens are: strong heavy units that can survive fast unit's 1st waves, with enough range to take them down. Alternatively rather what SAJM's ranged units accidentally are: with contact! Great fast counter units but to make that work their range must be buffed to 8 (otherwise players can bypass them with abyssal gliders or even TAS' fast).

 

[Bosun]

Those premium expansions are becoming as expensive as the ones in Elvenar.

And let's add a lot of them too ...

I hate it so much that they do everything they can to squeeze extra money out of us.

You only noticed that today? The amount of things they are making you buy is only increasing each day, it's going to get ALOT worse, trust me I've seen this happen in another game.

Everybody loves expansions, some day there will be a limit to your city, in terms of avaliable space to put said expansions ("theres a bit of space in the area between the castle and the antiques dealer") and the time that will take to load everything.

 

[CrashBoom]

Those premium expansions are becoming as expensive as the ones in Elvenar.

And let's add a lot of them too ...

I hate it so much that they do everything they can to squeeze extra money out of us.

Spoiler: Compare the last 2 ages with the previous era's

but what would be the difference between them giving you only 3 premium expansions
and you only buy 3 expansions from those 12


it is not them forcing you to spend money
it is your decission

I play since 2012 and never spend any money

 

[qaccy]

Actually yes and no. The fast easily out range them. It's no secret that contact! Counters fast the most effective. Heavies with a range of 3 will not even with contact! Be able to do a thing. The other issue is that heavies are so weak, that fast can easily take them down before they even get the chance to strike fast. This is why steel wardens were such formidable counters: great defensive specs + force field + decent range.
The range shouldn't be underestimated. Even crabs from OF have a bad range (6) with an arguable good defensive ability. Yet they struggle to be an effective counter.

For those reasons, for heavies to be a good counter they need both a decent enough range, great defence specs and an ability that aid them in countering fast. The letter like you've also mentioned. Stealth on rare terrain doesn't do anything. For those reasons I rather see heavies getting buffed back to what the steel wardens are: strong heavy units that can survive fast unit's 1st waves, with enough range to take them down. Alternatively rather what SAJM's ranged units accidentally are: with contact! Great fast counter units but to make that work their range must be buffed to 8 (otherwise players can bypass them with abyssal gliders or even TAS' fast).

I'm struggling to see how an increased attack range helps here. Would you be able to clarify that part? Because again, after a heavy unit is attacked by something, that heavy unit is easily going to be able to approach that unit and attack it even with the low range that heavies have had since SAAB. If an Energy Cannon hits a Steel Fist, that Steel Fist is going to be able to retaliate against it because an attack range of 8 (the Energy Cannon's range) is not enough to keep the Energy Cannon away from the Steel Fist. And even if Steel Fists had a range of something like 20, the Energy Cannon still moves first so it's going to be hitting the Steel Fist before it can attack anyway. Do you see what I'm saying here? Attack range isn't the 'problem' with heavy units, because with initiative factored in they'd never really get an opportunity to first-strike an enemy anyway.

 

[drakenridder]

I'm struggling to see how an increased attack range helps here. Would you be able to clarify that part? Because again, after a heavy unit is attacked by something, that heavy unit is easily going to be able to approach that unit and attack it even with the low range that heavies have had since SAAB. If an Energy Cannon hits a Steel Fist, that Steel Fist is going to be able to retaliate against it because an attack range of 8 (the Energy Cannon's range) is not enough to keep the Energy Cannon away from the Steel Fist. And even if Steel Fists had a range of something like 20, the Energy Cannon still moves first so it's going to be hitting the Steel Fist before it can attack anyway. Do you see what I'm saying here? Attack range isn't the 'problem' with heavy units, because with initiative factored in they'd never really get an opportunity to first-strike an enemy anyway.

You've ignored my other most important points: the likelihood heavies survive the 1st wave of fast's attacks. Steel wardens do this the best. Steel fists is the 2nd best-ish scenario. However the immobility of heavies severely limiting their options. Range will counter their limited movement. The second most important thing is: defence specs. With the exception of steel wardens and steel fist's reactive armour, the space heavies have little chance to survive. Yes the SAJM heavies maybe stick around with luck alone but are still easily killed with fast. Shredders and TAS' heavies are shut down in 1-2 shots by fast. Moving on to the 3rd and last important reason why heavies are canon food: besides the lack of sufficient defence specs, no good complimentary ability. Stealth on rare terrain does nothing to aid them to counter fast, powering up their attacks for close combat (shredders) does nothing either. Force field + great defence specs (steel wardens) for example do help. Reactive armour (steel fists) do help. Another great ability could be contact! It's just already since CE to counter reactive armour tanks and in SAJM to counter fast.

To summarise:
1.) Lack of complimentary ability, apply reactive armour, force field (with great defence specs), or best of all Contact!*
2.) Great defence specs (use most spec points in this category and buff it on plains)
3.) more range to counter lack of mobility

*contact! Will only work if the range is 8 because otherwise players bypass those heavies with abyssal gliders, artillery outrange heavies to counter them and ranged units too

Further more it's interesting and sad to notice the following. Ranged have blast, which counters stealth. Ironically they don't have a buff in TAS against heavies. Lights have force field but are supposedly countered by ranged (who have blast). It seems they've swapped around abilities. Making heavies effectively the laughingstock once more.

 

[xivarmy]

I'm struggling to see how an increased attack range helps here. Would you be able to clarify that part? Because again, after a heavy unit is attacked by something, that heavy unit is easily going to be able to approach that unit and attack it even with the low range that heavies have had since SAAB. If an Energy Cannon hits a Steel Fist, that Steel Fist is going to be able to retaliate against it because an attack range of 8 (the Energy Cannon's range) is not enough to keep the Energy Cannon away from the Steel Fist. And even if Steel Fists had a range of something like 20, the Energy Cannon still moves first so it's going to be hitting the Steel Fist before it can attack anyway. Do you see what I'm saying here? Attack range isn't the 'problem' with heavy units, because with initiative factored in they'd never really get an opportunity to first-strike an enemy anyway.

Range is somewhat important for target selection partly - i.e. so you can gang up on the unit of your choice rather than just able to hit the one that hit that specific heavy.

It's also important for general usability of the unit - while 8 fasts is the case being made for the unit, and it probably can live without range for that - especially since the fasts also lack much range, it should also be a candidate for something like 6 fasts + 2 ranged. Which I guess it might be due to ai stupidity before too long (because of blast those ranged units are going to try to get as close as possible - but if we're giving the heavy something to make it tanky instead of stealthed on rare terrain there's a case for the ranged losing blast for a more relevant ability in an age without stealth).

But yes, i suppose you could just really jack up the defense for the heavy to make up for its otherwise-incompetence and that might be enough for the current slate of abilities as-is. The city that wants to use that would also need good defense for attacking army to keep up - but as long as it's not a disproportionate need for it, that's probably fine. (i.e. if 1000% defense is enough to "survive" 1000% attack decently well).

 

[drakenridder]

Imho, for any fast counter, they must be able to survive the fast's 1st attack. Dead units don't counter any unit. Good abilities to counter fast:

Rapid deployment (overrules fast's main advantage, with enough range/movement)
Contact! Punishes instantly fast's 1st wave of attack (with at least 8 range)
Force field + defence (improved survival odds to punish fasts)
Reactive armour (same as force field but works better with an enemy with higher att% than you)

Up to this point interestingly enough rapid deployment and contact! have never been given to heavies up to this point. Imho it would be an interesting set of abilities to give at some point, to explore on heavies.

 

[Atokirina]

You only noticed that today?

No, every once in a while I just need to vent. It isn't my first post regarding the game going this way.

It's my first post on the premium expansion though, the previous year I didn't say anything about it.

 

[qaccy]

You've ignored my other most important points: the likelihood heavies survive the 1st wave of fast's attacks. Steel wardens do this the best. Steel fists is the 2nd best-ish scenario. However the immobility of heavies severely limiting their options. Range will counter their limited movement. The second most important thing is: defence specs. With the exception of steel wardens and steel fist's reactive armour, the space heavies have little chance to survive. Yes the SAJM heavies maybe stick around with luck alone but are still easily killed with fast. Shredders and TAS' heavies are shut down in 1-2 shots by fast. Moving on to the 3rd and last important reason why heavies are canon food: besides the lack of sufficient defence specs, no good complimentary ability. Stealth on rare terrain does nothing to aid them to counter fast, powering up their attacks for close combat (shredders) does nothing either. Force field + great defence specs (steel wardens) for example do help. Reactive armour (steel fists) do help. Another great ability could be contact! It's just already since CE to counter reactive armour tanks and in SAJM to counter fast.

To summarise:
1.) Lack of complimentary ability, apply reactive armour, force field (with great defence specs), or best of all Contact!*
2.) Great defence specs (use most spec points in this category and buff it on plains)
3.) more range to counter lack of mobility

*contact! Will only work if the range is 8 because otherwise players bypass those heavies with abyssal gliders, artillery outrange heavies to counter them and ranged units too

Further more it's interesting and sad to notice the following. Ranged have blast, which counters stealth. Ironically they don't have a buff in TAS against heavies. Lights have force field but are supposedly countered by ranged (who have blast). It seems they've swapped around abilities. Making heavies effectively the laughingstock once more.

I wasn't ignoring your other points, and in fact I emphasized how increased defense would be much more impactful (and in the case of Champions, adjusting their movement costs to match the other heavies).

It is interesting that you keep mentioning Steel Wardens specifically though. Are Glacier Hikers not simply better Steel Wardens? I haven't played with them myself yet, so I'm not sure if maybe Inno adjusted their movement costs to make them less maneuverable (movement costs might be something that go over your head, I'm not sure whether you pay attention to this mechanic in battles). If they're the same though, I don't see any situation where a Steel Warden would be a better choice in battle. Consistently hitting artillery one turn earlier is about the only one I can think of, but then there's the massive stat difference to consider and artillery isn't really a favorable matchup for most heavies anyway. What I'm saying boils down to this: The attack range for heavy units doesn't really matter. Their stats and abilities, yes, I agree, those can have an impact. But under the assumption that Inno isn't going to mess with unit initiative and will keep the relative turn order as fast > range > artillery > heavy > light for a given age, extending the attack range for heavy units isn't really going to help them against anything except for potentially light units, and that would mostly be if relying on the old trick of manually holding your units back on the first turn to give the enemy a turn to advance.

EDIT: Also, side question, does anyone happen to know what the initiative values are for the SAT units? It's trial-and-error through gameplay without datamining. since this info isn't directly viewable in the game.

 

[Atokirina]

but what would be the difference between them giving you only 3 premium expansions
and you only buy 3 expansions from those 12


it is not them forcing you to spend money
it is your decission

I play since 2012 and never spend any money

It was a lot easier for F2P players to get the premium expansions by just playing actively.

But in the last 2 eras, they added so many expansions (and they aren't cheap either) that it takes a very long time to buy them as F2P, especially since they halved the diamond gains from guild expedition.

In all eras before "Space Age: Jupiter-Moon", it's manageable as F2P to buy them by saving up your diamonds. Since the 12 premium expansions and the diamond nerf in the guild expedition, that changed completely.

Forge of Empires used to be quite balanced in the past: everyone has limited space and in the long term, the gap between paying players and F2P players (if they both play actively) closes.

Now with the huge power creep in the last events and the high amount of expensive premium expansions and the diamond nerf, that gap is just expanding.

And I liked FoE so much because it was quite well-balanced, and now I see it deteriorating to squeeze extra money out of it, no matter the overall quality of this freemium game.

2-3 years ago you could still recommend FoE as one of the best browser/mobile games with F2P balance. As a F2P player, you could easily stay close to large whales. And easily be better than paying players if you played a little active and well. And if you freed up a little more time, you could make nice diamond farms to become a whale as a F2P player. For new players or players without farms, they have now made that very difficult due to the current circumstances:
• Wishing well nerf
• Huge power creep in events
• Much higher number of premium expansions last eras
• Fountains of youth nerf in guild expeditions
• Diamond nerf in guild expeditions

They're exhausting the cash cow until she drops dead.

And that while they use up almost all resources on their sad mobile games like Rise of Cultures.

 

[Darkpepp]

but what would be the difference between them giving you only 3 premium expansions
and you only buy 3 expansions from those 12


it is not them forcing you to spend money
it is your decission

I play since 2012 and never spend any money

dislike

you had time to build 2-3 diamond cities and you might get enough from that to be able to buy the ****ing area, but someone who started recently will have approx. It will take 20 years to gather enough fragments to build a diamond city.
Anyway, it's stupid to put more areas than the base for a guarantee.
it's just about the money nothing else.

 

[qaccy]

It was a lot easier for F2P players to get the premium expansions by just playing actively.

But in the last 2 eras, they added so many expansions (and they aren't cheap either) that it takes a very long time to buy them as F2P, especially since they halved the diamond gains from guild expedition.

In all eras before "Space Age: Jupiter-Moon", it's manageable as F2P to buy them by saving up your diamonds. Since the 12 premium expansions and the diamond nerf in the guild expedition, that changed completely.

Forge of Empires used to be quite balanced in the past: everyone has limited space and in the long term, the gap between paying players and F2P players (if they both play actively) closes.

Now with the huge power creep in the last events and the high amount of expensive premium expansions and the diamond nerf, that gap is just expanding.

And I liked FoE so much because it was quite well-balanced, and now I see it deteriorating to squeeze extra money out of it, no matter the overall quality of this freemium game.

For what it's worth, I don't think too much has really changed from a F2P perspective. If a F2P player only buys 2-3 expansions from the age, they're in the same spot they'd be if Inno had only added that many instead of 12. But 12 extends the ability to purchase expansions beyond what it used to be previously, making more available overall. Would you rather have the limit just be 2-3 per age again, or is it better to have more than that available even if you can't buy them all right away due to lack of diamonds?

 

[drakenridder]

I wasn't ignoring your other points, and in fact I emphasized how increased defense would be much more impactful (and in the case of Champions, adjusting their movement costs to match the other heavies).

It is interesting that you keep mentioning Steel Wardens specifically though. Are Glacier Hikers not simply better Steel Wardens? I haven't played with them myself yet, so I'm not sure if maybe Inno adjusted their movement costs to make them less maneuverable (movement costs might be something that go over your head, I'm not sure whether you pay attention to this mechanic in battles). If they're the same though, I don't see any situation where a Steel Warden would be a better choice in battle. Consistently hitting artillery one turn earlier is about the only one I can think of, but then there's the massive stat difference to consider and artillery isn't really a favorable matchup for most heavies anyway. What I'm saying boils down to this: The attack range for heavy units doesn't really matter. Their stats and abilities, yes, I agree, those can have an impact. But under the assumption that Inno isn't going to mess with unit initiative and will keep the relative turn order as fast > range > artillery > heavy > light for a given age, extending the attack range for heavy units isn't really going to help them against anything except for potentially light units, and that would mostly be if relying on the old trick of manually holding your units back on the first turn to give the enemy a turn to advance.

EDIT: Also, side question, does anyone happen to know what the initiative values are for the SAT units? It's trial-and-error through gameplay without datamining. since this info isn't directly viewable in the game.

Steel wardens are vastly superior compared to glacial hikers. Steel wardens are bullet sponges when attacked by sentinels. The larger range of steel wardens aids greatly to counter their limited mobility. They have 10 range while the glaciers have 2. Like @xivarmy mentioned with teaming up against a unit. This is all in practice what makes steel warden's performance better: their large range allow them to fight more effectively against sentinels. Where the hikers struggle to pulling off attacks on abyssal gliders. Even though they've came "close" to them. The good steel wardens counters where artillery cause they could shut them down from a distance and space marines with dragon breath taking on multiples at once. In practice when 8 glaciers fight against 8 abyssal gliders, losses on glaciers are often 2-3. While steel wardens vs 8 sentinels had usually 0-2 losses. The letter when very unlucky.
For those reasons in practice, restoring heavies range + relative defence specs + a good complimentary ability should fix the balance issues with fast units. Which is my point. Fixing heavies but neglecting their range won't do much good for them, unless it's compensated with more mobility. Imho what could make a future heavy the GOAT fast counter would be a heavy with great defence specs + 8 range + contact! For the exact same reasons why 6-7 rouges + ranged SAJM unit is currently the GOAT fast counter: rouges don't take damage and will strike back due to contact! of SAJM's ranged units' ability.

A purely hypothetically interesting meta with heavy rapid deployment:

Art + stealth on plains (counters heavy and hides from them and light)
Range + blast (counters art, out speeding them and light)
Heavy + rapid deployment (counters fast and ranged)
Light + dragon breath (counters heavy + fast)
Fast + flying (counters art and range)

Simplified:
Art + heavy/light - fast/range
Heavy + fast/ - art/light
Light +heavy/fast - art/range
Range +light/art - fast/heavy

 

[Old Blue Eyes]

If needed.

Have any of the numbers or quests changed to go live?

 

[Beta King]

For what it's worth, I don't think too much has really changed from a F2P perspective. If a F2P player only buys 2-3 expansions from the age, they're in the same spot they'd be if Inno had only added that many instead of 12. But 12 extends the ability to purchase expansions beyond what it used to be previously, making more available overall. Would you rather have the limit just be 2-3 per age again, or is it better to have more than that available even if you can't buy them all right away due to lack of diamonds?

There should definitely be 12+ every era so the paying players have a lot more space and far more advanced cities for their money. If the F2P players could basically keep up for free with the paying players why would the paying players pay any more... Someone has to foot the bill!

 

[Beta King]

Have any of the numbers or quests changed to go live?

I think they are just gonna go live with it like it is and see how many get stuck in SAT before they realize its gonna be like wading thru quicksand for a year while those in SAJM are still rolling along nicely. This is my assumption since Juber has not said anything about anything being adjusted.

 

[CrashBoom]

at least they could change the titles of the quests