Feedback Guild Battlegrounds

[xivarmy]

I suspect that a plan to deal with Siege Camps is already in the works.

Probably. But even say the 'stack multiplicatively' or 'cap effect' plans will still mean having the t-goods to fill every building slot with a siege camp is far more effective than any other city development in increasing average individual contribution of the guild. I'm not even opposed to that one.

I don't think negotiation is in a bad place to be honest the way things are currently balanced - very few people will put in that level of effort. I just think that if a fighter puts in the same amount of effort they should be able to get a comparable result. I think it was a stretch before though, and that the change made things worse while attempting to mollify "above average" fighters by "see you can do 10 more than before! shiny! nevermind you'll never progress meaningfully further than where you are now *cackle evilly*"

 

[qaccy]

Fighters can fight; increasing military bonuses allows one to fight more, and these boosts are permanent so long as you keep the buildings around.

Negotiators can negotiate; goods production isn't quite as black-and-white to increase as military bonuses and goods inventories are constantly fluctuating, but it is possible to push up the amount produced.

The important thing to me though is that no matter what anyone tries to say, it's always possible to run out of goods. No, it's not possible to have essentially infinite goods and to be able to endlessly negotiate from the start to the end of a given battleground. Theoretically you can, sure, since negotiations can never truly be impossible, but reality says that no, you're not going to be able to negotiate forever. No matter how many buildings you have, no matter how big your Chateau is and how many quests you do, no matter how many goods you can produce in a day, you're eventually going to run out of goods if you negotiate enough. The thing with negotiating though is that once you run out of goods, you're out of goods even after attrition resets. Military bonuses don't reset. Unless a fighter ran themselves out of troops the previous day, they'll be able to hit the ground running once attrition resets unlike the negotiator who, even if it took several weeks, ran themselves out of goods because they read on the internet that they didn't have to worry about running out of goods.

Although, reading through some posts here, it sounds like what people really have a 'problem' with is negotiating providing two advancements while fighting provides one. We have to remember why Inno settled on this. It didn't really have anything to do with the capabilities of any player, and more to do with the time taken for a negotiation round along with the guaranteed cost of negotiation. Battles can be won without losses, essentially being free, and it was additionally decided that, on average, two battles could be completed in the time it took to complete one negotiation and so negotiations are worth 2 advancements. These two factors are pretty hard to reconcile, so I personally don't see any simple way to do it differently. They obviously can't both be worth 1 advancement, so what else is there?

 

[xivarmy]

The important thing to me though is that no matter what anyone tries to say, it's always possible to run out of goods. No, it's not possible to have essentially infinite goods and to be able to endlessly negotiate from the start to the end of a given battleground. Theoretically you can, sure, since negotiations can never truly be impossible, but reality says that no, you're not going to be able to negotiate forever. No matter how many buildings you have, no matter how big your Chateau is and how many quests you do, no matter how many goods you can produce in a day, you're eventually going to run out of goods if you negotiate enough. The thing with negotiating though is that once you run out of goods, you're out of goods even after attrition resets. Military bonuses don't reset. Unless a fighter ran themselves out of troops the previous day, they'll be able to hit the ground running once attrition resets unlike the negotiator who, even if it took several weeks, ran themselves out of goods because they read on the internet that they didn't have to worry about running out of goods.

But if fighting were balanced appropriately in some aspect of the game, then it WOULD be possible to run oneself out of troops comparable to running out of goods. Granted many players have much bigger stockpiles of rogues than goods, so it might take longer than they're willing to wait. But denying people opportunities to start that process will never resolve it. If you've got a traz making say 150 rogues a day, how many really high boost fights would that take to consume and start depleting them? say 30-40? If you were doing the hypothetical 1000 fights a day they were worried about that'd be consuming a month's worth of troops in that day - it would ultimately be unsustainable. How is that different than depleting a goods stockpile other than former-GvGers have been building up the rogue stockpile so much longer/higher? Now granted the new sentinel tower might have changed that further and perhaps this was foresight on their part that after people built a few hundred lv2 sentinel towers they'd be able to cut the losses at 1750% down to a more manageable number and never deplete their rogues while doing crazy amounts of fights. Another argument for why tacticians and sentinel towers were a mistake; at least while defense for attacking army was "hard" anyone would be vulnerable to taking losses in a high boost PvE fight, and for defense for attacking army to be hard, it was only fair that attack for defending army was also hard.

Although, reading through some posts here, it sounds like what people really have a 'problem' with is negotiating providing two advancements while fighting provides one. We have to remember why Inno settled on this. It didn't really have anything to do with the capabilities of any player, and more to do with the time taken for a negotiation round along with the guaranteed cost of negotiation. Battles can be won without losses, essentially being free, and it was additionally decided that, on average, two battles could be completed in the time it took to complete one negotiation and so negotiations are worth 2 advancements. These two factors are pretty hard to reconcile, so I personally don't see any simple way to do it differently. They obviously can't both be worth 1 advancement, so what else is there?

They can be worth 2 attrition as well. Third time I've suggested this now This would at least put fighting (the former first-class, now second-class citizen) in the position of saving goods for however much fighting you can do. Where right now if you fight before you negotiate you waste attrition in the "free" fights and then have to spend even more goods later if you do a significant amount of negotiating.

Still my preferred solution is to just slow down the fighting "wall" so that meaningful amounts of boost do translate into a meaningful amount of increased attrition you can handle at all levels of boost, not just in the range they want people to have (not much more than is needed to finish GE4 by fighting in mars).

 

[DeletedUser10282]

In my world, I am hearing reports that SAM users are struggling to keep up with VF goods and the demand is skyrocketing. Is this the case in other servers?

 

[DeletedUser9938]

Same on my live server

 

[Marrauder]

same

 

[DeletedUser8939]

It is very well assembled, the one who fights will have his wear and tear until he sees that his units are not maintained and the one who negotiates will have his negotiations until you see his warehouse go down.
What I don't see well is that update December 3.
It is not better to leave it as was the wear and put an infinite wear from the 100.
Example if 100 is 1750%
101 wear 1800%
102 = 1850%
The same with the negotiations, that every player arrives where he can for that he invested in his city.

 

[Hiep Lin]

What I don't see well is that update December 3.
It is not better to leave it as was the wear and put an infinite wear from the 100.

Average players can fight longer.
I was stuck in 40 fights, I can go to +/- 50 according to the defenses (with 460/220%).
I think to be representative of a majority of players neither beginners nor top 10 fighters

 

[Ian Santa Claus]

You are so mistaken. guilds with high age members trade for goods and then trade down 2:1 over and over for their Iron Age guildmates and give them a huge pile of goods to negotiate with - a big loophole in the system.

And the flaw with your argument is that iron age goods are not being produced in large quantities.
Yes most of us high end players have 1000's of low age goods in stock, but when they've been used up there simply won't be enough of them left in circulation or being produced to allow the tactic you describe.
We're already seeing players deplete their stocks in live after just a couple of battlegrounds, eventually negotiations will become limited to using what goods a player can produce that day.

 

[DeletedUser10282]

And the flaw with your argument is that iron age goods are not being produced in large quantities.
Yes most of us high end players have 1000's of low age goods in stock, but when they've been used up there simply won't be enough of them left in circulation or being produced to allow the tactic you describe.
We're already seeing players deplete their stocks in live after just a couple of battlegrounds, eventually negotiations will become limited to using what goods a player can produce that day.

Iron age is just an example. there is at least one guild in my world loaded with low to medium age players that has been exploiting this loophole. trading for goods just to be used in GBG. and I’m not talking about high age players with low age goods, I’m referring to trading for high age goods and then trading down 2:1 an age over and over.

 

[DeletedUser10047]

I’m referring to trading for high age goods and then trading down 2:1 an age over and over.

For that to work, there have to be an abundance of lower-age players with excess goods to trade.

 

[DeletedUser10282]

For that to work, there have to be an abundance of lower-age players with excess goods to trade.

are you kidding? Do you understand how to do unfair trades? I have helped struggling players who had almost nothing, like less than 10 of each bronze and Iron Age good and then a short while later after a series of unfair trades loaded them up with over 300-500 iron age and EMA Goods so they could do GE or plant a GB

You have a guild with just a few high age players and a bunch of low and middle age players and they can be loaded up with goods via trades to take on a large high age guild in GBG. some of them will trade FPS for higher age goods and then trade down, it’s too easy to sustain negotiations vs, fighting with the old system and It will probably be even worse now,

 

[DeletedUser10047]

are you kidding? Do you understand how to do unfair trades? I have helped struggling players who had almost nothing, like less than 10 of each bronze and Iron Age good and then a short while later after a series of unfair trades loaded them up with over 300-500 iron age and EMA Goods so they could do GE or plant a GB

You have a guild with just a few high age players and a bunch of low and middle age players and they can be loaded up with goods via trades to take on a large high age guild in GBG. some of them will trade FPS for higher age goods and then trade down, it’s too easy to sustain negotiations vs, fighting with the old system and It will probably be even worse now,

So let me ask you - are YOU kidding? 300-500 lower age goods? How is that going to allow them to do a 100 negotiations a day?

We aren't talking a one-off here, something you do every month or two. Can you provide those lower age players 300-500 goods a day, day after day? Unless a high-age player has a friends list loaded with lower age players, down-trades aren't going to be that easy on a continual basis. And even then, those lower age friends are going to run out of goods themselves.

 

[DeletedUser10282]

So let me ask you - are YOU kidding? 300-500 lower age goods? How is that going to allow them to do a 100 negotiations a day?

We aren't talking a one-off here, something you do every month or two. Can you provide those lower age players 300-500 goods a day, day after day? Unless a high-age player has a friends list loaded with lower age players, down-trades aren't going to be that easy on a continual basis. And even then, those lower age friends are going to run out of goods themselves.

I know for a fact that many people in my world, particularly from one guild in particular, are making such trades and then trading down for GBG since it started and continued to do it with the 2nd season. As I said, many of them are paying FPS for the goods and then trading down. Higher age goods brings lots and lots of lower age goods. They don’t have to have an excess of goods to start out with as you are suggesting.

And now, it’s going to be harder to fight in the upper ends, which will make it easier for such players to hold on to some of their goods.

 

[qaccy]

@Genco Abbandando the point @dontwannaname is making is that eventually, the goods ARE going to run out. It's a fact that most players cannot think long-term and instead go for short-term benefits. Currently, just about everyone is overspending in battlegrounds because they look at their stockpiles and think 'no problems here!' Sad truth will come to them when they suddenly have to pay diamonds to fill in a 0 on negotiations and wonder where all their goods went.

No problems right now does NOT mean that there won't be problems later. Players are digging themselves into some very deep holes, mark my words!

 

[DeletedUser10282]

@Genco Abbandando the point @dontwannaname is making is that eventually, the goods ARE going to run out. It's a fact that most players cannot think long-term and instead go for short-term benefits. Currently, just about everyone is overspending in battlegrounds because they look at their stockpiles and think 'no problems here!' Sad truth will come to them when they suddenly have to pay diamonds to fill in a 0 on negotiations and wonder where all their goods went.

No problems right now does NOT mean that there won't be problems later. Players are digging themselves into some very deep holes, mark my words!

I understand that point, and as I pointed out in a separate post, SAM players in my world (and apparently other words) are starving for VF Goods. As far as negotiations are concerned those players are at a huge disadvantage right now vs. lower age players. Those lower age players will probably be able to sustain it much longer, as long as Goods are there to trade down and it’s easier for them to fight in the beginning and because high end fighters won’t be able to push them as far.

I would not be pushing my point as much, if it wasn’t for this over correction on the fighting end.

Also, as a guildmate just reminded me, it’s not just goods that run out, but units as well and this fact seems to be ignored with this attrition change,

 

[DeletedUser10037]

Omg i see always the same.
Always against the big players on the servers.

Look at my GBs

163-Arche

Image 163-Arche hosted in imgbb.com

ibb.co

And attack

Angriff-1101

Image Angriff-1101 hosted in imgbb.com

ibb.co

So Inno tell why i should this game longer?
This Update is sh.. friendly said.

Now you get punished for to be to good.

 

[xivarmy]

@Genco Abbandando the point @dontwannaname is making is that eventually, the goods ARE going to run out. It's a fact that most players cannot think long-term and instead go for short-term benefits. Currently, just about everyone is overspending in battlegrounds because they look at their stockpiles and think 'no problems here!' Sad truth will come to them when they suddenly have to pay diamonds to fill in a 0 on negotiations and wonder where all their goods went.

No problems right now does NOT mean that there won't be problems later. Players are digging themselves into some very deep holes, mark my words!

Oh some of them are for sure. I know players who have been going for broke. But when I say longterm negotiations are way ahead of what fighters can do, I speak for what I personally am able to sustain with just a few weeks of prep. My VF goods have barely moved in my SAM city. First round was easy enough I wasn't pressed. Second round I did indeed deplete a bunch at the start, but I recovered back to a similar level by the end with very little reliance on trade.

And once Ceres comes out I'll be far more prepared than I was to do this in Mars having had some events to target towards this strategy.

Furthermore my low age world is the one where eventually I should really be feared. I don't even have the basic super-GB infrastructure there yet, so I'm not doing a ton right now - but by time I get it properly setup 100+ negotiations a day should be reasonable. I expect that'll take me a year though to get ready due to lack of quality support there

While goods stocks are certainly going to deplete from the levels they were at in the short term, they're never going to completely run out, and we haven't seen just how far people can break the system in terms of producing goods because previously most people weren't particularly motivated to do so.

 

[DeletedUser3885]

To date, FoE could be played solo. The difference was not to far from the other much larger guidles, but I could still disguise it. Now, with the new attrition, it is impossible for a loner to be able to do anything on the Guild Battlefields. I can still beat 4354% of attrition, but I can't do more than that.
Congratulations FoE for negatively discriminating who really wants to play alone!
To devs, I just say that you can create the game but don't really know how to play it !!! The lack that makes Anwar!

 

[Nessie]

InnoGames acts extreme unfair against SAM players since SAM players have almost no chance to trade SAM goods vs VF goods. It would really help if you tell us how many VF goods Ceres might cost 400? 1000? 8000? 20000? give us a hint!!!!