Feedback Guild Battlegrounds

[Lionhead]

I´m so looking forward for this to hit the live servers. This can get very competitive and close once the leagues are formed to match guild performance.
This season here on Beta the GBG-pool our guild was a part of was decided by 300 VP´s. So it came down to the very last hour.

http://prntscr.com/pmc8d0

And since it was this close and, maybe it would be great if we by mouseover can see the complete score. That might help decide the final tactical decisions in a season. As it is right now, we can´t see the final 2 digits in the overall score. So the winning margin this week could actually be between 301 and 399 VP´s.
Let us be able 2 see the complete score, please.

 

[DeletedUser8354]

As was mentioned before, the initial MMR calculations were based on amount of members and activity (and success) within GE and GvG of the past two weeks (at the point of calculation).
This calculation could only be an approximation, but could never reflect the final rank of a guild. For that to be reflected, we simply need a few seasons so that the league system can sort itself naturally.

Spoiler: Side Note

The original approach would have been to just put all guilds in copper league and let itself get sorted from there, but that would have led to completely unfair battlegrounds for the majority of the community for several seasons.
By giving out MMR (and therefore higher league allocations) to all guilds, we will not have to wait so long for the required amount of "point-swelling" that is needed for stability in such a system.

@aragon82:
For your case, please keep in mind that it could have been that your guild wasn't rated very high within gold league (after initial placement), and that the gold league is the biggest one. Therefore, it requires more MMR gains / losses to move out of it.
But I am sure your guild won't take long to get to platinum league anymore.

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For live worlds we can of course review the initial placement calculation again and make sure that it's more likely for powerful guilds to already start in platinum.

Hi Devs..
In 1st round we were in the same group with 4 or 5 Top 7 guilds. We ended up 2nd, behind Kyp. Kyp became the only platin guild then. In last BGB we got together with #1 and 3 others to play in platin league, but still with "gold league" status. We ended 2nd, not that much behind Kyp. It's ok, they were better. Am I right that there's a high chance that we'll be allowed to play platin league again with next round end up 2nd again and again and again and again and still are a "gold League" guild. Like this we never advance. In case we would do almost nothing, end up 5th, would play propper gold league in the overnext season and dominate there, would we get platin? If this is the case we might do so... Makes no sense in any sports with leagues. Or is our guild level the main problem why we're not platin?

 

[Nessie]

But I am sure your guild won't take long to get to platinum league anymore.

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Is this meant sarcastically? See post of Aragon, Gerry and Nataliafelitsyn! I am not pleased

 

[Natalia1]

@aragon82:
For your case, please keep in mind that it could have been that your guild wasn't rated very high within gold league (after initial placement), and that the gold league is the biggest one. Therefore, it requires more MMR gains / losses to move out of it.
But I am sure your guild won't take long to get to platinum league anymore.

.

No it could not have been that case because we were rated 2nd in the first BG behind KYPIAPXOI and ahead of Dragonstar, both platinum guilds now, and then again rated 2nd in the platinum BG. Before we started the BG we were 2nd in GvG for more than 2 weeks, as well as always 1st in GE for a long time.

Please review this as I believe that there is a mistake there somewhere

 

[DeletedUser10039]

I read through the first 20 pages and decided to ask for a pointer to a specific page in this thread if it exists or an answer to the following question. How is the Ranking of individual players determined within your guild for GBG? Thank you.

you get 2 points for a negotiation and 1 point for a fight. So someone with 200 negotiations and 10 fights (410 points) will be above someone with 10 negotiations and 350 fights (370 points)

 

[sirblu]

How the league system works has also been explained in a past "Live Q&A Video", but I am happy to write it here as well.

Basically every guild has a value assigned, called "Match-Making Rating" (MMR).
This value decides on the league allocation!

When Battlegrounds started, every guild was assigned a specific MMR value, according to amount of members and recent activity in Guild Expeditions and GvG (this was the best approximation we had available at that time).
So it was totally possible that two guilds were starting off in Gold league, but one had a weak MMR value, and the other one was strong. The guild with the strong MMR was therefore way closer to ranking up to platinum.

That's why it may even happen that a guild that is placed 2nd gets promoted (because it was at the brink of ranking up anyway), and guild that places 1st will not climb in league (as the MMR was weak to begin with).
However, this case should be rare because ...

... matchmaking of guilds for each battleground happens first and foremost using the MMR value. Therefore we can make sure to match guilds that are very close in terms of MMR.
Imagine there are 10 guilds in gold, then we end up with two battlegrounds: One has the 5 guilds with the highest MMR within gold league, and the other instance has 5 guilds with the lowest MMR within gold league.

In the long run this will make up for a more granular and therefore more fair competition.

This may also hint at how we calculate the prestige gains from battlegrounds & leagues.
We use the MMR to provide prestige, so that not every diamond guild ends up with exactly the same amount of prestige.

This is wonderful explanation - that you so much for sharing it

 

[sirblu]

here you can read an explanation from the devs:
https://forum.beta.forgeofempires.c...-guild-battlegrounds.10852/page-32#post-88936

Thank you Aragon, that was very helpful

 

[DeletedUser9734]

But I am sure your guild won't take long to get to platinum league anymore.

I think he means that they made a mistake and will fix it next round. Hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube at this point.

 

[DeletedUser9734]

I want to make a few suggestions concerning the individual rewards.

1) Change the FP rewards to 7 FPs, 10 FPs and 15 FPs (from current 5/7/10)
2) Get rid of the 10 goods reward and have all goods rewards be 50 goods. Many negotiations require a lot more than 10 goods.
3) Make 50% of goods rewards also be for earlier era goods, because negotiations more often than not, require previous age goods.
4) Get rid of the one military unit reward, make all unit rewards 5 units.

 

[Emm55]

I'd love to be able to purchase an "extra turn" boost for the battleground negotiations from the tavern shop. Not everybody likes to fight. I've been wasting diamonds on negotiations a lot. And it's ok since this is beta. But I wouldn't wanna spend diamonds on negotiations in live servers.

I had the same idea weeks ago. But I began to follow someone's advice that I just need to quit the negotiation rather than spend diamonds. That has been working OK for me. Also, if we have access to a 4th turn, I imagine that Inno will make it harder by increasing the # of choices as they did in GE. In GBG, it seems to stay at 6 choices. I like that GBG is different than GE in this regard. Although it was hard to break my 4th turn habit.

 

[DeletedUser10263]

The MMR rating isn't as balanced as you'd think. A guild of 1-2 members simply can't compete with guilds with 6-8 people. My guild only has 2 members, but this week we were pair off against a guild of 6 and a guild of 8 members. I personally did over 180 negotiations and my guild member did just over 20. We came in 3rd this week. But we were paired off against a guild of 6 and another of 8 members. If they all did negotiations, then they only had to do 20-30 each which costs roughly 100-200 goods. Me alone doing 180 negotiations cost me well over 500+ goods, not to mention the reward division between the weekly rankings make no sense.

The guilds in 4th to 8th, took 0-4 sectors each and they all got 118k - 120k guild power as a reward. But my guild in 3rd position got 129k guild power. The guild in 4th place got 122k guild power. Second place got 146k and the first place guild who didn't have to do as much as they did got 163k guild power. The amount of guild power rewarded between the ranking spots make no sense.

My guild got 6 sectors but only got 121k guild power for our troubles. The single member guild in 2nd place only got 4 sectors yet he got 146k. The guild in the first place position got 163k and 10 sectors but by their VPH, they didn't have to work that hard because they averaged 1790 VPH while 2nd to 4th position only got 200 VPH roughly. Our VPH is higher than the guild in 2nd position yet our VP count is lower, though we captured 4 before he even got 1...

In a basic reward scale of 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, the top person get 50%, the 2nd get 30% and 3rd gets 20%. But the reward scale in this 1-7 scale, the rewards are too close together. A guild who worked their butt off to get 3rd position 6 sectors only gets a fraction of a difference from guild who only got 1 sector.

If first position got 163k, then I'd expect 2nd position to get no more than 90k, 3rd no more than 50k and the rest easily under 20k... but difference between the rewards of 118k to 163k reward needs to be further apart, yes? Considering the last two guilds on the bottom didn't even bother getting any sectors yet they still got 118k guild power as a reward for not doing anything?

 

[Gindi4711]

What are the conditions to receive the 10 statue of honor shards because I did not receive mine? Does your guild need to take at least one sector?
I negotiated one time on a sector, I guess the rest of the guild was inactive and we placed 3rd with all the other guilds that did nothing as well.

 

[beelzebob666]

Please review this as I believe that there is a mistake there somewhere

The mistake is still in your assumption that all gilds started with the same MMR...

The easy explanation is that the guild that got promoted to platinum - even though they placed 3rd while you got 2nd - started off with a higher MMR to begin with, so they just needed less gains than your guild for the league upgrade...

But if you place decently next time too and you still do not rank up, something fishy might be going on. Nevertheless you still will be playing for platinum rank rewards next week...

 

[beelzebob666]

What are the conditions to receive the 10 statue of honor shards because I did not receive mine? Does your guild need to take at least one sector?
I negotiated one time on a sector, I guess the rest of the guild was inactive and we placed 3rd with all the other guilds that did nothing as well.

If you have no VP in the end, you get nothing for beeing ruled inactive.

 

[Hiep Lin]

Considering the last two guilds on the bottom didn't even bother getting any sectors yet they still got 118k guild power as a reward for not doing anything?

What are the conditions to receive the 10 statue of honor shards because I did not receive mine? Does your guild need to take at least one sector?
I negotiated one time on a sector, I guess the rest of the guild was inactive and we placed 3rd with all the other guilds that did nothing as well.

inactive guilds do not win anything.

 

[DeletedUser10244]

What happens if I switch age during a battleground?
Are goods from new age required for trading,
Are Battles against troops of new age or
is it handled like GEX, where I use goods and fight against troops of my last age?

 

[DeletedUser9522]

What happens if I switch age during a battleground?
Are goods from new age required for trading,
Are Battles against troops of new age or
is it handled like GEX, where I use goods and fight against troops of my last age?

It will be handled like GEX.

 

[Natalia1]

@beelzebob666 We have 2nd place in GvG (for several months now), and we have been 1st place in GE for a long time, so we should not have had a bad MMR to begin with, unless there is something in MMR they have not told us.

 

[DeletedUser10047]

@beelzebob666 We have 2nd place in GvG (for several months now), and we have been 1st place in GE for a long time, so we should not have had a bad MMR to begin with, unless there is something in MMR they have not told us.

I expect that MMR would have been calculated from short-term data - current guild size, GE activity over 1 or 2 weeks, and GvG activity over 1 or 2 weeks. (Activity being measured in terms of number of people participating and amount of participation). Taking 1st place in GE is nice, but if it was accomplished with 65%, the MMR would be significantly less than 2nd place accomplished with 120%.

 

[sirblu]

The MMR rating isn't as balanced as you'd think. A guild of 1-2 members simply can't compete with guilds with 6-8 people. My guild only has 2 members, but this week we were pair off against a guild of 6 and a guild of 8 members. I personally did over 180 negotiations and my guild member did just over 20. We came in 3rd this week. But we were paired off against a guild of 6 and another of 8 members. If they all did negotiations, then they only had to do 20-30 each which costs roughly 100-200 goods. Me alone doing 180 negotiations cost me well over 500+ goods, not to mention the reward division between the weekly rankings make no sense.

The guilds in 4th to 8th, took 0-4 sectors each and they all got 118k - 120k guild power as a reward. But my guild in 3rd position got 129k guild power. The guild in 4th place got 122k guild power. Second place got 146k and the first place guild who didn't have to do as much as they did got 163k guild power. The amount of guild power rewarded between the ranking spots make no sense.

My guild got 6 sectors but only got 121k guild power for our troubles. The single member guild in 2nd place only got 4 sectors yet he got 146k. The guild in the first place position got 163k and 10 sectors but by their VPH, they didn't have to work that hard because they averaged 1790 VPH while 2nd to 4th position only got 200 VPH roughly. Our VPH is higher than the guild in 2nd position yet our VP count is lower, though we captured 4 before he even got 1...

In a basic reward scale of 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, the top person get 50%, the 2nd get 30% and 3rd gets 20%. But the reward scale in this 1-7 scale, the rewards are too close together. A guild who worked their butt off to get 3rd position 6 sectors only gets a fraction of a difference from guild who only got 1 sector.

If first position got 163k, then I'd expect 2nd position to get no more than 90k, 3rd no more than 50k and the rest easily under 20k... but difference between the rewards of 118k to 163k reward needs to be further apart, yes? Considering the last two guilds on the bottom didn't even bother getting any sectors yet they still got 118k guild power as a reward for not doing anything?

I totally agree with you! When this all began the first round I was a guild of one also. This second round I was also a guild of 1 but now for round 3 coming up we are a guild of 5.
But you are absolutely correct - the Guild power rewards are most definitely way off and it will eventually cause folks to give up as why bother with all the costs of goods and troops when guilds that do nothing get rewarded handsomely. I believe that INNO thinks it will all balance out in the end as the do nothing Guilds will eventually fall off and they may be correct but it remains to be seen how long that will take and if the reward system will indeed balance out prior to folks getting fed up with it.
If a Guild is non participating then they should receive nothing regardless of the position they hold. That's where they need to fix it. The system is programmed to look at only placements not the actual number of sectors taken to get them in that placement.