Feedback [Feedback] - Virtual Future - Part 1

[DeletedUser7779]

@Logain Sedai It'll have to be a pretty darn good artillery unit to nullify all that defense+Force Field. Even the Medusa sometimes requires 3 shots to bring one down. What do you propose that it'll look like that it will be able to keep Ronins in check without also being incredibly imbalanced itself? Because anything that can easily kill a Ronin is going to be a significant threat to everything else as well.

I don't think bots need a change yet. Yes, they are super powerful against the other VF units, but turtles still beat them fairly easy. 8 bots stand no chance against 8 turtles and trust me I've attacked a hoodie whose bots were at 1000%+ defense boost.
What was discussed in the beginning - that samurai should have had dragon breath instead of the stupid contact, would have surely taken a little bit from the bots' strength - but I guess we gotta trust Inno to keep their promises and the new units would balance out the current ones.

 

[Sinitar]

@Logain Sedai It'll have to be a pretty darn good artillery unit to nullify all that defense+Force Field. Even the Medusa sometimes requires 3 shots to bring one down. What do you propose that it'll look like that it will be able to keep Ronins in check without also being incredibly imbalanced itself? Because anything that can easily kill a Ronin is going to be a significant threat to everything else as well.



It's not just FP, for the record. Goods, medals, even guild power and BP productions are all prioritized.

Perhaps another gun rain upgraded?

 

[xivarmy]

but I guess we gotta trust Inno to keep their promises and the new units would balance out the current ones.

*snicker*

 

[qaccy]

I don't think bots need a change yet. Yes, they are super powerful against the other VF units, but turtles still beat them fairly easy. 8 bots stand no chance against 8 turtles and trust me I've attacked a hoodie whose bots were at 1000%+ defense boost.
What was discussed in the beginning - that samurai should have had dragon breath instead of the stupid contact, would have surely taken a little bit from the bots' strength - but I guess we gotta trust Inno to keep their promises and the new units would balance out the current ones.

Nah, if you're the one attacking with Ronins, you can keep them spread out to mitigate the effects of Mortar which significantly reduces their threat after the initial salvo. However, against 8 Turtles you're obviously not going to be using Ronins and the majority of armies you face aren't that one-dimensional anyway. Most armies are mixed, and these 'jack of all trades' armies are easily handled by Ronins on a level that's pretty unmatched by other units as there isn't a significant enough representation of anything to capitalize on a Ronin's supposed weaknesses whereas pretty much everything falls in two attacks from one except for units with Reactive Armor and other Ronins. With one or maybe two units out there capable of bringing a Ronin down in two shots, that means pretty much every unit is in an unfavorable matchup against them especially when you're the one controlling them and the opponent is subject to the AI.

You can reliably auto-fight your way all the way up to GE4 using nothing but Ronins. Aside from potentially hovers (which will likely suffer more losses and a higher risk of just outright defeat due to their reliance on terrain for stealth), can that be done with any other unit? I'd say they're pretty imbalanced. Enjoy them while you can!

 

[DeletedUser7779]

You can reliably auto-fight your way all the way up to GE4 using nothing but Ronins. Aside from potentially hovers (which will likely suffer more losses and a higher risk of just outright defeat due to their reliance on terrain for stealth), can that be done with any other unit? I'd say they're pretty imbalanced. Enjoy them while you can!

Just like after OF was released everybody was fascinated by the eels. Everyone used to auto lvls 1-3 with 8 eels. They were a great unit for their time but after other parts came out, their strength decreased. So we can't categorize them as "imbalanced" before we see the artillery and fast units.

 

[xivarmy]

Just like after OF was released everybody was fascinated by the eels. Everyone used to auto lvls 1-3 with 8 eels. They were a great unit for their time but after other parts came out, their strength decreased. So we can't categorize them as "imbalanced" before we see the artillery and fast units.

Pretty much - Ronin might still stay top dog for the age, but that'll be the fault of other units primarily if so. As things stand:

Ronin beat all previous age units other than turturrets fairly well. This isn't necessarily a problem as they're previous age units and there's any number of units you could say this about in reference to what units came before them (AAVs, Stealth Tanks, Hover Tanks to name a few).

Ronin beat the two other currently introduced VF units relatively well, but those other units also have properties that just make them hard to use - even against earlier age units.

However:

The fast unit is not likely to be something that poses a threat to the Ronin as it has bonuses vs fast. It's in fact hard to imagine a fast unit that samurai are going to be able to use their contact with range 1 against that that range 1 doesn't also just get them slaughtered by Ronin + Rogues while doing no damage.

And after the artillery unit comes out Ronin life is either going to get even easier or maybe stay the same - they'll be avoiding the same fights they're avoiding now with a lot of artillery at best.

If they continue the 10 unit approach from OF, the second Light unit might be the first opportunity to see a less awkward non-artillery unit that counters them.

There is however precedent for ages where one army winds up being the answer to pretty much everything : CE and the AAV+7 rogue army. And Ronin aren't quite THAT strong in the current scheme ( i was at least losing some units testing out qaccy's assertion of just autoing with ronin through 3 difficulties - i don't lose any usually autoing through the first 3 difficulties with AAV+7 rogues in CE ).

I'd also suggest that nerfing the Ronin so that we have 3 useless units instead of 1 good and 2 useless can't be the answer as we'll just use earlier units instead then - already I'd for instance consider the Scimitar a better Samurai for most uses - sure it dies in two hits to many things, but the samurai took one of its 3 hits from retaliation and only hits one target at a time.

Edit: Perhaps what we'll see is a Fast unit with Blast? That would make sense as one of the things they counter is Ninjas who do have hide, and Blast causes the AI to try to melee things it shouldn't so that'd make the contact on a range 1 unit (occasionally/rarely) useful.

Edit 2: And then if the fast is Blast, perhaps the artillery could be stealth on plains to gain an edge in the artillery vs artillery match against the earlier age giving an age where the durable Ronin has trouble hitting things?

 

[qaccy]

Just like after OF was released everybody was fascinated by the eels. Everyone used to auto lvls 1-3 with 8 eels. They were a great unit for their time but after other parts came out, their strength decreased. So we can't categorize them as "imbalanced" before we see the artillery and fast units.

I heard more people talking about Subs (omg it's an upgraded version of the AAV!) than Eels when OF came out. Eels weren't really necessary since HTs were already doing what Eels could do. They were never powerful to the degree that Ronins currently are, even when OF only had three available units.

Your post does get me thinking, though. How come Ninjas aren't that good? They're not too different from Eels. Often striking first, stealth potential, inability to actually keep away from things while still attacking them. They lose one tile of range but have much higher attack power. Is no retaliation that big a deal or are Ninjas actually better than I think?

@xivarmy I think there's a pretty big gap between a nerf making a unit 'useless' and simply bringing it in line with other units. A reduction in either attack power or defense would still leave a usable unit, but currently it's great at both and I see that as a problem. I still can't come up with an artillery unit that's able to effectively counter them without also breaking balance against other units. You suggest stealth, which would certainly be a problem for Ronins, but a stealthed artillery unit is a huge threat to everything else as well if you aren't able to deal with it somehow. Every current artillery counter can't really be effective in that role if the artillery has stealth. Maybe a specialized offense-oriented ability instead? I'm thinking something like a reworked Power Shot that works against Force Field and Reactive Armor (the two abilities present on the units the artillery counters), but not stealth or flying so that artillery counters are still effective against it. The problem I see with this suggestion though is that Hovers would still pose a problem.

So in essence I guess it boils down to: How could the units be balanced so that none of them are overly powerful compared to the others? And in regards to artillery, how could it be designed so that it's able to pose a threat to both Ronins and Samurai, but at the same time also being able to keep the troublesome Hovers in check without breaking balance against units like the Ninja and Eel with artillery bonuses?

 

[xivarmy]

I heard more people talking about Subs (omg it's an upgraded version of the AAV!) than Eels when OF came out. Eels weren't really necessary since HTs were already doing what Eels could do. They were never powerful to the degree that Ronins currently are, even when OF only had three available units.

Eels were a bit delayed, but once people started using them more they found that 8 eels at least never wiped against anything in a lot of contexts which made them gain popularity.

Subs also remained popular.

Your post does get me thinking, though. How come Ninjas aren't that good? They're not too different from Eels. Often striking first, stealth potential, inability to actually keep away from things while still attacking them. They lose one tile of range but have much higher attack power. Is no retaliation that big a deal or are Ninjas actually better than I think?

A bit of both probably but eels were also helped with very bush-loaded OF maps where it seems VF maps seem a bit back more towards just normal maps with lots of plains and a few forests and bushes. Hard to hide 8 ninjas in, where hiding 8 eels was no problem at all.

@xivarmy I think there's a pretty big gap between a nerf making a unit 'useless' and simply bringing it in line with other units. A reduction in either attack power or defense would still leave a usable unit, but currently it's great at both and I see that as a problem.

The problem is 'bringing it in line' with the current 2 units is making it 'useless' because that's what the other two units are! Not just against ronin but against the previous age units. Hence other units need to come up more than the Ronin down.

I still can't come up with an artillery unit that's able to effectively counter them without also breaking balance against other units. You suggest stealth, which would certainly be a problem for Ronins, but a stealthed artillery unit is a huge threat to everything else as well if you aren't able to deal with it somehow. Every current artillery counter can't really be effective in that role if the artillery has stealth. Maybe a specialized offense-oriented ability instead? I'm thinking something like a reworked Power Shot that works against Force Field and Reactive Armor (the two abilities present on the units the artillery counters), but not stealth or flying so that artillery counters are still effective against it. The problem I see with this suggestion though is that Hovers would still pose a problem.

That was just some idle speculation but the layout in my hypothetical blast-fast and stealth-artillery looks like the following overall:
Stealth : Ninjas and Artillery
Antistealth : Fast
Doesn't care about stealth but is weak enough for other reasons : Samurai
Tanky as hell, needs it because it can't hit stealth : Ronin

Essentially you'd have a bit of a standoff amongst ninjas and artilleries and anything else you wanted to add would have to survive. The plethora of stealth solves the problem of how do you replace the turturret without giving even more offense. You'd deal with stealth artillery either by being in stealth yourself or by using fasts to alpha-strike them.

I don't claim this is wonderful, but it's better than I actually expect at this point for VF balance after 5 units. It's really hard to bounce back from 2 super-niche units in the first 3 that are a challenge to find uses for, even against previous era units. And until there's another unit that's better than things OF have to offer, nerfing Ronin seems premature.

Next era you'd move back towards anti-stealth artillery (upgraded microwave blaster, railgun, or plasma cannon) and a stealth light or heavy or ranged unit depending on how you want to change the balancing around.

 

[DeletedUser8995]

Hello,

Can anybody help me with this fight (56) :
4 bots 4 ninjas
2 turtles 6 scimitars

Thanks

 

[DeletedUser8262]

Any talk of nerfing ronins is very premature in my opinion since so far only 3 units of this age are out and 2 of the 3 are useless. I have just tried to auto lvl 3 on live using rogues and ronin and lost between 2 and 4 per battle. I can only assume the quaccy has a much higher att boost than the 220 i have, if thats the case how can anyone render judgment on a units abilities without taking att boost into account

 

[DeletedUser8995]

Hello,

Can anybody help me with this fight (56) :
4 bots 4 ninjas
2 turtles 6 medusas (and not scimitars as writen below)
Thanks

 

[DeletedUser9125]

I think, but cannot remember exactly, I hit them with 7 bots and 1 flyer - keep the flyer out of the way push the bots forward, glider might be the only unit left

 

[Ian Santa Claus]

An artillery skill that would be effective against bots without making the artillery too powerful against other units could be something along the lines of "energy overload", a skill that makes units with force field absorb 1 or 2 points of extra damage instead of 1 or 2 points less damage.
Give the unit a huge bonus against heavies and you'd have something with a chance of a one hit kill on bots that wouldn't be much use against anything other than heavies.
It would be an effective counter to the one unit for all tasks scenario that the bots are starting to look like now.

 

[DeletedUser8995]

I beat it with two hoover tanks and 6 rogues

 

[DeletedUser8995]

What about this one?
4 bots 3 turtles 1 medusa
4 bots 1 turle 3 medusas

 

[MonkeyDMonkey]

6 turtle 2 rogues?

 

[DeletedUser8995]

Great!
4 bots 3 turtles 1 medusa
4 bots 1 turtle 3 medusas

6 turltes 2 rogues that's ok!
Thanks

 

[DeletedUser8859]

Sudoku doesn't count

Sudoku only requires to count from 1 to 9 without repetitions, no other "math" required.
Kakuro requires to be able to add, or solve things like 2 + __ = 7

 

[SirSmithy]

You can report them here if you need to. I will pass them along.

Thanks! It worked! We have now the correct translation.

 

[SirSmithy]

Can someone tell me the reason behind the VF style of Unhappy Birthday quest?! Why do I have to click twice to pay the coins and supplies?
Until OF I could pay both of them with one single click. I could even recognize this quest with the green check-mark.

Can you please make it the same for VF like it is for all other eras?

(If someone is in VF here in Beta, can please open a bug for this with a screenshot?)

Thanks, regards, Smtihy

@Zarok Dai, any response from the devs for this?