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Feedback [Feedback] GE - Negotiation Game

DeletedUser6908

Guest
It all depends on how badly people want the shot at the premium/Event prizes. I figured that the negotiation option wouldn't be simple or cheap given that premium/Event buildings & diamonds are prizes. No way it was going to be 'spend X goods' and you're through.
 

DeletedUser7185

Guest
The expedition shifted off the map are pictures of me
 

thephantom

Emperor
InnoGames
bug reporting for this is closed. i can't add to it
You can report anything in the general Bugs forum. The only thing closed is the mission thread for this feature - this does not prevent you from reporting bugs though.

The expedition shifted off the map are pictures of me
The issue is being looked into by the development team, though we don't know when it will be fixed. Apologies for the inconvenience in the meantime.
 

Artubar

Baronet
Is it a idea to give a option to buy a new turn with
medals? Just hold the option to buy it with diamonds, but give a option 2 for buy a new turn with medals...

Either this, and/or following suggestion:
Raise the number of tries (perhaps even unlimited), but also raise the amount of demanded resources with each try.

Using a multiplicator on the last try's ressources gives the new amount demanded, for example

Multiplicator 1.5, try #
  1. 30 gold, 30 supplies, 1 good (base values)
  2. 45 gold, 45 supplies, 1.5 goods > 1 (floor rounding)
  3. 67 gold, 67 supplies, 2.25 goods > 2
  4. 101 gold, 101 supplies, 3.375 goods > 3
  5. ...

Multiplicator 2, try #
  1. 100 gold, 100 supplies, 5 goods (base values)
  2. 200 gold, 200 supplies, 10 goods
  3. 400 gold, 400 supplies, 20 goods
  4. 800 gold, 800 supplies, 40 goods
  5. ...
Since it gets extremely expensive soon, there would be place for a diamond pay option to find out a chief's demand (eg by bribing his servant)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
it is really horrible
not making any mistake and losing almost each time

(and no I don't pay diamonds for more tries)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Did anyone take notes on how many different resources are on level 3?
I have data for level 1 and 2, and want to calculate the average number of attempts to finish the expedition by negotiation.
 

DeletedUser2752

Guest
1st- 5
5
6
4th - 7
6
6
7
8th - 8
7
7
8
12th - 9
8
8
9
Final - 10
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Update on the best negotiation strategy.

Chances to negotiate an encounter in 3 turns:
4 resources - 95.1% (1.1 attempts on average)
5 resources - 83.1% (1.2 attempts)
6 resources - 60.0% (1.7 attempts)
7 resources - 36.0% (2.8 attempts)
8 resources - 22.0% (4.6 attempts)
9 resources - 12.7% (7.9 attempts)
10 resources - 7.8% (12.8 attempts)

The best strategy requires, sometimes, to offer at the 2nd turn set of resources, which will never be accepted. But such offer allows player to gather more information and make a better guess at the last turn.

With the best strategy, the average number of attempts needed to finish different difficulty levels is:
Difficulty 1 - 20.1 attempts
Difficulty 2 - 36.3 attempts
Difficulty 3 - 65.4 attempts

To finish all 3 difficulty levels, player needs, on average, 121.8 attempts (with standard deviation 21.4 attempts)

If a player uses all "free" attempts (24 attempts/day * 6 days + 8 initial attempts = 152 attempts), he will finish the expedition with probability 92.1%.

I'd say devs did a rather good job with this negotiation game. It's sufficiently easy for any player to play it, but at the same time it has (not obvious) strategies that significantly improve chances of a player. As with many other aspects of FoE, luck does play a role (and make things more interesting and unpredictable), but strategy is more important in the long run. Good job!

However, I think that the cost of negotiations is way too high. With over 100 attempts, 3 turns per attempt, 5 slots, and about 1-2 goods per slot, it gives over 1000 goods per week spent on the expeditions. This is too costly, and I don't think the negotiations will be very popular after few first weeks (maybe, only the first difficulty, which is rather simple). I think it would be better if the resources were subtracted only when the slot is "accepted".
 

DeletedUser2752

Guest
However, I think that the cost of negotiations is way too high. With over 100 attempts, 3 turns per attempt, 5 slots, and about 1-2 goods per slot, it gives over 1000 goods per week spent on the expeditions.
1000 is an understatement. Just look at the final encounter for level 3: It needs 3 goods per slot, 5 slots, 80% of the options are goods, and if it takes an average of 12.8 attempts, with the assumption you're using 3 turns per attempt, it's 3*5*0.8*12.8*3 = 460.8 goods (actually may be a little bit less, but not don't think it's a significant amount) used up just for that last one alone, and with the deviations mentioned, the 7.9% chance of you not making it through the expeditions means that those 460+ goods just went to waste :eek:
 

DeletedUser

Guest
@CM/developers

To finish all 3 difficulty levels, player needs, on average, 121.8 attempts (with standard deviation 21.4 attempts)
but that is only if we use the best strategy :rolleyes:
(and you can't teach luck to increase the success rate)

the best fighting strategy needs 48 attempts (0 standard deviation)
(and you can improve your GBs or fighting skills to reach that value if you aren't good enough yet to make it in 48 attempts)

you really should reconsider the negotiation
 

DeletedUser

Guest
@CM/developers


but that is only if we use the best strategy :rolleyes:
(and you can't teach luck to increase the success rate)

the best fighting strategy needs 48 attempts (0 standard deviation)
(and you can improve your GBs or fighting skills to reach that value if you aren't good enough yet to make it in 48 attempts)

you really should reconsider the negotiation
I'm not discussing which option is better - fighting or negotiating. For those with high-level GBs fighting is, obviously, easier, for those who don't want to fight - fighting is not an option at all.

However, don't you think that fighting with high-level GBs becomes a little bit dull?
I'd say that negotiation is more interesting than fighting. More expensive, but more interesting.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I'd say that negotiation is more interesting than fighting. More expensive, but more interesting.
sure: negotiation is more interesting than fighting
but having success is much more fun than failing every time

and if people fail to often they will fast lose their interest in it

:rolleyes:

However, don't you think that fighting with high-level GBs becomes a little bit dull?
but do we have a real choice ?
fighting is still the only way to be successful

and in at least 80% of the sectors with the standard 90% attack boost you can simply click autobattle and win every time


I'm not discussing which option is better - fighting or negotiating.
before that we must define "better"

for me: better is to have more success when doing it

and then there is no discussing necessary because all know which is better :rolleyes:


btw: I can do fighting the complete GE in 48 attempts (and there are many out who can do the same)
but is there someone out who can do that with negotiation :p



@Darkstar
still trying to do the complete 3rd level with negotiation ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Artubar

Baronet
Either this, and/or following suggestion:
Raise the number of tries (perhaps even unlimited), but also raise the amount of demanded resources with each try...
Using a multiplicator on the last try's ressources gives the new amount demanded, for example

Multiplicator 1.5, try #
  1. 30 gold, 30 supplies, 1 good (base values)
  2. 45 gold, 45 supplies, 1.5 goods > 1 (floor rounding)
  3. 67 gold, 67 supplies, 2.25 goods > 2
  4. 101 gold, 101 supplies, 3.375 goods > 3
  5. ...

Multiplicator 2, try #
  1. 100 gold, 100 supplies, 5 goods (base values)
  2. 200 gold, 200 supplies, 10 goods
  3. 400 gold, 400 supplies, 20 goods
  4. 800 gold, 800 supplies, 40 goods
  5. ...
Since it gets extremely expensive soon, there would be place for a diamond pay option to find out a chief's demand (eg by bribing his servant)

Is anyone official taking notice here, or should/ must I create a dedicated suggestion thread..?
(Sorry for asking, I'm new to these forums. And I wondered about no reaction at all, since this is, according to the announcements, supposed to be THE feature for one of the next updates...)

Bottom line after a bit more than one week: Current GE is a lost feature for me (early HMA, no battle LBs yet, neither willing nor able to pay real money on a regular basis, just to be able to take part - or more precisely: get past the point where [bad] luck dominates over wits).
 

thephantom

Emperor
InnoGames
@Darkstar
still trying to do the complete 3rd level with negotiation ?
I am not around this week & with very limited internet till Sunday so not even doing GE atm, sorry.

Is anyone official taking notice here, or should/ must I create a dedicated suggestion thread..?
(Sorry for asking, I'm new to these forums. And I wondered about no reaction at all, since this is, according to the announcements, supposed to be THE feature for one of the next updates...)
This is the official thread for any feedback/suggestions. All feedback & suggestions are being passed along to the game design team. Whether any of them, or which ones or in what manner, they will be adopted into the game, is not something we'd know. The general point that the mini-game becomes too difficult and expensive has definitely been made, though how that will be handled is unknown. If a change takes place then we'd know as it will be evident in the game and likely announced here.
 

DeletedUser4446

Guest
...that the mini-game becomes too difficult...

Difficult is not the correct term, I'm afraid. If it were a difficult skill game, we could beat it with skill.
Just like when you're trying to beat the final 100% armies without an attack bonus.

Now, you just need to be EXTREMELY lucky to negotiate the higher levels, even with optimal strategy, we will almost always fail.

Just imagine how disgusted players will be, when they spend hundreds of goods and thousand of medals to reach the end - only to win a "grand prize" of 50 goods... I don't think this will result in any positive comments.

A change is necessary.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Now, you just need to be EXTREMELY lucky to negotiate the higher levels, even with optimal strategy, we will almost always fail.
Luck has very little influence in the long run. The outcome of a single attempt, of course, is random to a large degree, but you have 152 attempts for expedition and strategy is much more important than luck.
Optimal strategy + activity (don't miss any attempt) give over 90% chance of finishing the expedition.

There is only 1 problem with the negotiation game - it is too expensive. The cost of goods needed for negotiation is, probably, balanced with the cost of units needed for fighting, if a player doesn't rely on Alcatraz and rogues. But who doesn't have Alcatraz and RH nowadays?
 

Andi47

Overlord
activity (don't miss any attempt)

Many players have a job or go to school - for those it is almost impossible NOT to miss any attempt. (I am missing a Forgepoint EVERY working day, because it takes me more than 10 hours from leaving home in the morning until returning home in the evening, so I am sure that I miss the same amount of attempts.)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Many players have a job or go to school - for those it is almost impossible NOT to miss any attempt. (I am missing a Forgepoint EVERY working day, because it takes me more than 10 hours from leaving home in the morning until returning home in the evening, so I am sure that I miss the same amount of attempts.)
Activity in FoE is rewarded. If you can't login several times a day, you'll lose a lot, not just with the expeditions.
But even if you can use only 20 attempts/day, the chances you'll finish all 3 difficulty levels are 61%. And it is not so difficult to buy 10-20 extra attempts with medals. Even if you can't complete everything, you'll pass most of the encounters.
 
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