Rejected [Suggestion] - Exclude Guild selection in Market

[Keritan]

Just as title says, add a selection that would make trades you are putting up to NOT show in your Guild.

Right now we have Guild only or Everyone. Many guilds are fair trade and don't want to see members doing unfair trades. While this is nice and helpful for younger members or newbies, there is a component of the game that can be fun to work if you have the mind for it. Fleecing your neighbors and Friends List peeps on trades. Err, I mean using Supply and Demand economics to make a killing in trading.

Any thoughts?

 

[DeletedUser8341]

The upshot of this idea would be that a guild member, desperate for some particular goods, would not be able to buy them from a guild member at any price but could buy them at an even worse rate from a non-guild member. That isn't the right solution.

My own proposal to deal with this (put on the en forum) is to allow the buyer to filter to those trades that are marked for 'Guild Only' by the seller.

Add a filter option to see only those trades which have been marked for Guild Only by the seller. In other words, provide a way to see market trades only put up specifically for guild members, by your guild members..

That way, guilds can get out of dictating to members what the rates for external trades are, while still insisting that intra-guild trades are conducted according to their own rules. (I won't get into what constitutes a 'fair' trade on this thread!)

 

[DeletedUser]

no not at all, put up a other option on (why because of the unfair trades guildies bully about).
option: don't display offer on guild only display. So they can buy it but when the only guild option is on the offers not turn on the screen.

A better one would be (turn only fair trades in the display, but with 2 different rates, inno and the calculators its hard to implement this one)

 

[Keritan]

@ Prinza: your idea is already in the system. If I (a buyer) want to see only trades in my guild, I select that option and filter for that. Just like I can filter for only trades from neighborhood folks and trades that I have the goods for.
However, by selecting Guild only, that also shows "unfair" trades.

If the Seller can select to not show in Guild, that alleviates that problem. And if a guildie is desperate for goods, then they can ask in the guild msgs for help. Every world I am in this occurs, some, we even do "unfair" on purpose to assist them with GE or anything else if they ask nice and we are willing.

 

[Keritan]

@Big Baloney: your first sentence is what I said. Give seller option to "not show in Guild"

I agree with second part, very hard to implement, and which "fair" calculator to use. The one on mobile is useless above LMA.

 

[DeletedUser8262]

Sorry but its a -1 from me.
The majority of guilds set the trade rules, anyone who doesn't like them is free to leave and join another. Any guild member who is happy to have their needs met at fair rate but expects to profit from their surplus should be kicked. One mans surplus is anothers need, its what being in a guild is all about.

 

[DeletedUser8341]

@ Prinza: your idea is already in the system. If I (a buyer) want to see only trades in my guild, I select that option and filter for that. Just like I can filter for only trades from neighborhood folks and trades that I have the goods for.
However, by selecting Guild only, that also shows "unfair" trades.

If the Seller can select to not show in Guild, that alleviates that problem. And if a guildie is desperate for goods, then they can ask in the guild msgs for help. Every world I am in this occurs, some, we even do "unfair" on purpose to assist them with GE or anything else if they ask nice and we are willing.

I don't know why it is so hard for me to get this point across. I'm normally good at explaining something technical.

You cannot filter to trades that were put on and marked for guild only. I have checked the browser version, which has better filtering options, and confirmed this.

As you imply, what you can do is filter to those trades that are put on the market by your guild mates.

However, if one of your guild mates puts on the market:

• 100 lumber for 50 iron marked for guild only (a 'fair trade' according to his guild and intended for guild members only)
• 100 lumber for 75 iron (for sale generally because lumber is scarce and someone might be willing to pay)

The best filter you have will show you both trades. Your guild mate never intended that you should pay him 75 iron for 100 lumber. He put that trade up in the hope that someone in the neighbourhood would pay up (rather than pay 50 iron and have 25 iron stolen by plunder!).

Without the ability to filter to only those trades intended for the guild (i.e. marked 'guild only') guilds are dictating to members what trade rates their members do with people who, within minutes of trading, could be plundered to regain those very same goods! This is a ridiculous situation that - I'm guessing - has been going on for years. While Guilds can set whatever terms they like for membership, it is not really up to them what external trades are done any more than what external fighting is done. I am sure that if buyers could limit their market view to only trades that were put on the market by guild mates and intended for guild mates, a lot of the current tension over 'fair trading' would go away as guilds could say 'internal trades must be fair' instead of 'all your trading must be fair'.

 

[DeletedUser8471]

I think I understand what @Prinza the Hunter and @keritan are trying to say here, and it does make sense. More filter options and more choices when selecting trades would help open the market up to a more "free market" so to speak. I think bringing the two ideas together would be the best move.

So when creating trades you would have options for "guild only" and "non-guild only" so that you can choose if your guild members can view them or not. Having neither box checked would allow the trade to be viewable to all to see and take it they want.


With the addition of this new feature having more filters would help as well. Being a mobile player I have 2 filters to choose from, 1 is "guild only", the other being trades I can accept currently. We would need to add an option for "non-guild only" trades, so that they are still viewable for us if we want to take them because to us we feel they are worth it even if they are not labeled as "fair trade"


I'd also like to say an overhaul on the trading system for mobile would be nice. As it is now I can't distinguish between "neighborhood" trades and "friend" trades. I would need to get on the PC to figure out which ones they are, and not everyone has this option.



To summarize:
When creating a trade these options would appear:
"Fair Trade" option, which works as is putting trades automatically at 1:2, 2:1, or 1:1.
"Guild only" option, again the same, an option for only Guild members to view.
"Non-Guild members" option, for players in guilds that want to post trades that their Guild has deemed "unfair", without repercussions.

When viewing available trades, these filters would appear:
"Guild only", showing only trades marked with the "Guild only" option, or trades posted from Guild members with no option selected.
"Non-Guild only", showing trades that are either not listed by Guild members, or when the "Non-Guild members" option is selected.
"Neighborhood only", showing only from players in your current Neighborhood.
"Friends only", showing only those trades from players on your Friend List.
"Acceptable trades", showing only those that you are currently able to take.

(And yes I do know the last ones are available, though not all available on mobile. Just listing them all to be clear.)

 

[Manganite]

I think I understand what @Prinza the Hunter and @keritan are trying to say here, and it does make sense. More filter options and more choices when selecting trades would help open the market up to a more "free market" so to speak. I think bringing the two ideas together would be the best move.

So when creating trades you would have options for "guild only" and "non-guild only" so that you can choose if your guild members can view them or not. Having neither box checked would allow the trade to be viewable to all to see and take it they want.


With the addition of this new feature having more filters would help as well. Being a mobile player I have 2 filters to choose from, 1 is "guild only", the other being trades I can accept currently. We would need to add an option for "non-guild only" trades, so that they are still viewable for us if we want to take them because to us we feel they are worth it even if they are not labeled as "fair trade"


I'd also like to say an overhaul on the trading system for mobile would be nice. As it is now I can't distinguish between "neighborhood" trades and "friend" trades. I would need to get on the PC to figure out which ones they are, and not everyone has this option.



To summarize:
When creating a trade these options would appear:
"Fair Trade" option, which works as is putting trades automatically at 1:2, 2:1, or 1:1.
"Guild only" option, again the same, an option for only Guild members to view.
"Non-Guild members" option, for players in guilds that want to post trades that their Guild has deemed "unfair", without repercussions.

When viewing available trades, these filters would appear:
"Guild only", showing only trades marked with the "Guild only" option, or trades posted from Guild members with no option selected.
"Non-Guild only", showing trades that are either not listed by Guild members, or when the "Non-Guild members" option is selected.
"Neighborhood only", showing only from players in your current Neighborhood.
"Friends only", showing only those trades from players on your Friend List.
"Acceptable trades", showing only those that you are currently able to take.

(And yes I do know the last ones are available, though not all available on mobile. Just listing them all to be clear.)

Fully agree, more options is always the best sollution!

 

[DeletedUser8341]

So when creating trades you would have options for "guild only" and "non-guild only" so that you can choose if your guild members can view them or not.

I still can't see why anyone would offer a trade to non-guild members, yet deny their guild-mates the opportunity to take the trade if they wanted. Not that it matters too much, other than creating confusion and screen clutter (though I'm guessing the only sensible way to implement all these options is with a pop-up window, anyway).

Once it is possible to filter to see trades only intended for guild-mates, guilds can review their policy on fair trading and decide if they want to keep imposing it on all trades, or only impose 'fair trades' on those which are internal to the guild.

Perhaps a "Friends Only" option: that, I can see some people wanting to do, if they consider their friends as more important than their guild.

With the addition of this new feature having more filters would help as well. Being a mobile player I have 2 filters to choose from, 1 is "guild only", the other being trades I can accept currently. We would need to add an option for "non-guild only" trades, so that they are still viewable for us if we want to take them because to us we feel they are worth it even if they are not labeled as "fair trade"

Quite, so now you are indicating that even if the trader wants to mark te trade for non-guild, guild-mates can over-ride it and buy it anyway, negating the stated intent of the buyer.

I'd also like to say an overhaul on the trading system for mobile would be nice. As it is now I can't distinguish between "neighborhood" trades and "friend" trades. I would need to get on the PC to figure out which ones they are, and not everyone has this option.

In general, I consider the app market to be superior. The way that goods are clearly distinguished by age, with the same goods picker used in many other places, is a really good interface and far better than the confusing muddle on the browser. However, the one big thing missing from the mobile that is on the browser is the traders' names. This should be put on the app; any concerns over screen space can be addressed with an option to display them or at the worst, by displaying them on a long-press (such as used in PvP battle screen).


To summarize:
When creating a trade these options would appear:
"Fair Trade" option, which works as is putting trades automatically at 1:2, 2:1, or 1:1.
"Guild only" option, again the same, an option for only Guild members to view.
(Possibly) "Friends only" option, for players who want to limit trades to their friends.

When viewing available trades, the trader's name would show and these filters would appear:
OR "Guild", showing only trades by guild mates.
OR "Guild only", showing only trades marked with the "Guild only" option, by guild mates
OR (Possibly) "Friends only", showing only trades marked with the "friends only" option, by friends.
AND "Acceptable trades", an additiionsl filter showing only those that you are currently able to take.

 

[DeletedUser8471]

with the "non-guild members" option it is intended so that when the "guild only" filter is selected these trades will not show up, unless also selecting the "non-guild members" filter is selected as well.

This is to prevent issues with Guilds with "fair trade" rules, allowing members of these Guilds to still place "unfair trades" on the market while allowing other members to hide such "unfair trades".

This was not intended to hide these trades from other Guild members, but give more options for those that want to dabble in the "unfair" market without Guild Leaders getting too upset. I assume with the implementation of this feature Guild Leaders could instruct new members to use the new filter features to hide the "unfair trades" to allow trading within the guild to remain easy.

Of course I can see where some Guilds would still implement rules against using this feature if they wanted, but I could see more Guilds allowing "unfair trades" this way, so long as they used the feature properly.

Am I clear on this? I'm not sure how else to explain what I originally meant.

 

[dolphin]

"Fair Trade" option, which works as is putting trades automatically at 1:2, 2:1, or 1:1.

I think you mean "Simple Trade".
"Fair Trade" is calculator.

 

[DeletedUser8471]

I think you mean "Simple Trade".
"Fair Trade" is calculator.

Well in-game it is labeled as such, so to avoid confusion I kept it linear. A good point though because one persons idea of fair trading is different to others. And I have seen a few of these so called fair trade calculators, each one is different than the last and makes things extra confusing. Players should have their own choice on whether they deem a trade "fair" or not based upon what they currently own and what they are willing to pay for what they want. The fact that the majority of Guilds dictate these trade limits is bogus, but I do understand why some do it, to make things simple and easy if they are a guild that takes in new players and teaches them the ways of the game (that they themselves know how to play their way). While I agree it makes it easier to teach newer players what trades should be considered "fair" to make their progress slightly easier, it also hinders those who wish to remain in the guild that has helped them grow by not allowing them to post trades they would personally consider fair. With the implementation of these added features it would allow a more open and free market allowing players to dispose of goods they don't want for ones they need.

And for the naysayers out there that think it's dumb to post a trade asking for 100 granite in return for 50 wine, believe it or not some players will take the trade because they need the wine for a map piece or a tech they skipped earlier down and ran out of BA goods. It is up to the players to decide what is "fair" and what isn't, and these features simply allow this to occur.

 

[Keritan]

Mek2. you hit the nail on the head.

 

[DeletedUser7942]

I think you mean "Simple Trade".
"Fair Trade" is calculator.

See, Inno for some unholy reason used the term "Fair Trade" in the app version of the game which simply sets a default ratio of 1:2 Down, 1:1 Across 2:1 Up, Browser does the same automatically if you enter the "Your Offers" first and the amount then select the good for "Your Needs" then it automatically set the amount. Keeping in mind age/era is not accounted for, only the ratio.

Then you have the "Fair Trade" guild trade standard many guilds set which is pretty much the saa with the exception age is accounted for.

How either of these were ever deemed "fair" I'll never know but I've been fighting against the accepted nomenclature for a long time now.

And I have seen a few of these so called fair trade calculators, each one is different than the last and makes things extra confusing.

I suppose they are different in presentation but they are all based on coins/supplies cost and pretty simple to use, some guilds use the calcs as their trading standard as opposed to the "fair" trade standard.

 

[DeletedUser]

The open marked would be filled with unfair trades if this idea comes into the game Guess what that will do? laggggg even with filters it will take loads of server power, and your filter stil has to filtrate all trades, so lean back and wait for your fair trades to be sorted out from the one billion unfair trades.

 

[DeletedUser8471]

The open marked would be filled with unfair trades if this idea comes into the game Guess what that will do? laggggg even with filters it will take loads of server power, and your filter stil has to filtrate all trades, so lean back and wait for your fair trades to be sorted out from the one billion unfair trades.

Maybe this could be arranged to prevent such issues? Having a hard cap on the number of trades a player can post, and s soft cap on the different types of trades (disregarding actual numbers involved, only account for the goods used in the trade).

I know it sounds mean, but I'm sure this could be set at a reasonable amount still allow players to post enough trades they need to turn their goods into what they want them to be.



And @TheSlayerofSloppyJoes , I do agree the current idea of what is considered "fair" is bogus that Guilds dictate this idea, and seem to have for a long period of time. The feature I described would allow for a more unified experience between those that only wish to utilize "fair" trade options, and those that wish to dabble in the "unfair" market.

As for the calculators I did figure as much, but I feel some of them use different formulas and can return different results when entering the same numbers across them. I know personally I've looked at 3 or 4 of these pages, and it seems some like implement the cost of the unrefined goods as well as the cost for refined goods. None of which however take into account the scarcity of some goods/good deposits upon various servers. This is where your fight for the "unfair" market comes into play.

Stone seems to be an issue to come by, whether it is because the actual deposit is rarer than the other 4, or it is because of the buildings actual size compared to the others, I do not know. That being said I would gladly offer up more of my own goods in return for Stone. Yes this can cause an uneven distribution of resources, but that is bound to happen anyway.

The same can be said for Rope, being such a small footprint it seems to be a good that is produced in great abundance. I would gladly offer up twice as much rope for any given good of my age or lower, (and would even offer multiple trades of such goods back and forth to give better ratio than the game will allows for). I can't tell you how any times I would list 1 of each rope trade and 3 of each salt trade, and still have the salt taken before the rope (a lot of times rope trades expire on me and all salt trades disappear in a day or 2)



So yes, I too agree the so-called "fair" market is bs made up by players that wish to dictate their rules and principals on others, and implementing these features listed in my above post would allow an actual fair market and union between all players (though I'm sure some Guilds may still impose their strict "fair trade" rules on members to make their own lives easier)

 

[Cardena]

If this were implemented, what would I see in the market when I am in the same neighbourhood as the guildie that posted that "not for guild" trade?

 

[DeletedUser8471]

If this were implemented, what would I see in the market when I am in the same neighbourhood as the guildie that posted that "not for guild" trade?

I would assume that this could be arranged in such a way that the trade would still show up if you share a Neighborhood or are on their Friendlist when selecting the correct options.

 

[DeletedUser8341]

The open marked would be filled with unfair trades if this idea comes into the game Guess what that will do? laggggg even with filters it will take loads of server power, and your filter stil has to filtrate all trades, so lean back and wait for your fair trades to be sorted out from the one billion unfair trades.

What is unfair in a trade that you are not forced to take?

If I go to my local shop and they have a pint of milk on sale for (£$¥€)1,000 is that unfair? No, it is simply stupid because nobody will buy it.

A trade that somebody accepts of their own free-will is, by definition, fair.