Feedback Ongoing Changelog w/c 30th July

[DeletedUser7942]

5890

So it's at 3.7%, lower than I expected.

AF is in the 'right spot'

"right spot", yes, it's good to put quotes over that like you did, what is the right spot? How much increase ought there be from age to age? What is "representative of VF"? What does it mean to say "balanced as an OF GB"? So the only true way to know are actual percent increases from age to age. There was no increase from ME to PME, why? There was no increase from PME to CE, why? Why was the % increase from FE to AF so much higher relative to all other ages?

From a trendline perspective AF should be around 4980 fp's total 1-10

 

[xivarmy]

So it's at 3.7%, lower than I expected.

"right spot", yes, it's good to put quotes over that like you did, what is the right spot? How much increase ought there be from age to age? What is "representative of VF"? What does it mean to say "balanced as an OF GB"? So the only true way to know are actual percent increases from age to age. There was no increase from ME to PME, why? There was no increase from PME to CE, why? Why was the % increase from FE to AF so much higher relative to all other ages?

Percentages are not the right way to look at it though - there is an obvious trendline of a (relatively) constant (not percentile) increase from BA to ME. AF lands where it would've had that trendline continued. The motivation for doing so was almost certainly what the arc did to things (PME through FE buildings would not be cheap at 0% boost - though PME and CE would still be cheaper than ME as they're the same cost with more rewards. And perhaps at the time they were wise enough to know that retroactively changing the costs of 4 ages of buildings would be an unneeded uproar and ate their mistake). Whether or not PME and CE buildings being cheap was intentional, only developers would know.

That said, as a player, things cost what they cost. Inno sets the prices. Players either decide to pay them or not pay them and go without. I don't recall anyone when Orangery was released exclaiming it costed too much compared to previous buildings even though it was a marked jump (Gaea did come first but all the complaints I remember around that one was that it was colosseum 2.0 and thus noone wanted to build it). There's no reason to expect players (other than perhaps qaccy who's made PME to FE buildings being cheap his crusade) would've paid too much attention to Terracotta being abnormally cheap until they actually powerlevel the thing and realise it's not as hard as it was to do Kraken.

I suppose their thinking is 'not too many' people have yet powerlevelled their Terracottas so if they're going to change it it has to be now. But there certainly are some, and the ones who have hardly need the 5k-10k FP gift in the form of penalising those below them.

 

[DeletedUser7942]

Percentages are not the right way to look at it though - there is an obvious trendline of a (relatively) constant (not percentile) increase from BA to ME. AF lands where it would've had that trendline continued.

Huh? Okay, let's look at it like this for the sake of argument since we don't know what is the right spot for anything at this point. From BA to IA there was a total 1 through 10 fp increase of 220 fp's which is an 8.8% increase. If we increase each age -.2% relative to the age before it it looks like ths;

Spoiler: Chart

Who knows what the reasoning is that goes behind the actual increases though, let's get the actual guy on here that decides that.

I guess you can also look at it like this which illustrates the AF problem;

Spoiler: Chart

 

[qaccy]

The existence of this server does not absolve inno of any responsibility whatsoever when it comes to balancing their own game. Its purpose is to give a wider array of feedback, which we do. But ultimately the buck SHOULD stop with their own damn developers to follow a process to ensure values are what they want them to be BEFORE they release it to live servers where people have a REASONABLE expectation that things are already balanced at what they're supposed to be.

However, in the instances where they aren't caught, do we not then have a responsibility to catch these errors? Like you say that Inno shouldn't be 'absolved' of any responsibility, neither should the people who are here on the beta server. While this is basically just voluntary, any player who catches a bug, exploit, or any other imbalance but fails to report it is just as guilty of allowing these issues to hit live servers, in my opinion. You have to remember that while Inno is responsible for maintaining the game, they're also incredibly focused on actually designing EVERYTHING that goes into it, not just checking for bugs. Again, that's why this server exists. Outside sets of eyes are often much better at spotting errors, or at least having different perspectives, than the ones who are actually working on a project. What might seem obvious to us could just be because we were not at all involved in the design process, and as such were not in the state of mind that could lead to overlooking such things in the process of actually creating it.

The difference is the nerfed unit is nerfed for everyone afterwards. It's not like people who already had unattached units get to keep the old stats or anything. The nerf to terracotta army only applies to those who have not yet levelled it as far as they eventually plan to - a condition that does not apply equally.

The point still remains that anyone who used this unit before it got fixed would have an advantage over those who did not, via rewards gained through the much easier battles using them. If nobody came to the forums after this hypothetical error got fixed claiming they felt slighted by not getting the chance to use these imbalanced units, even with the reality of nobody having them anymore, I would be incredibly surprised. When exploits and imbalances get fixed, people only care how much (or how little) they personally got out of it beforehand, not that everyone's experience is equal. They eventually settle with the latter due to sour grapes: Since I didn't get to benefit, I don't want anyone else to either!

@TheSlayerofSloppyJoes I think you missed my underlying point in my post you quoted, and that's that very few people playing on this server actually use the forums. Obviously forum users exist and some of them post, but even in that case only a fraction actually provide feedback (and usually only when it's negative). But regarding the whole beta server, you can bet that there is nowhere near a large portion of them posting here, and that's the problem I would think needs to be addressed. I'd even go as far as to lock a player's city if they go x amount of time without submitting a feedback report, because this server does not exist just for people to play the game normally like any other server. Again, this would require changes to beta's structure (which, again, I reminded you were discussed at one point in my post), but until that point is reached there still aren't enough players actually treating beta like a beta server either. You can see that easily by all the complaints that pour in from people who are unaware of what a beta environment entails, which in a nutshell includes bugs, typos, other errors, and a generally less-than-desirable playing experience. When I see people here complaining about something like mobile getting delayed event releases here on beta, or especially the almost-automatic 'where are the diamonds?' post on the first page of nearly every 'new content' feedback thread, it's a nice reminder that a lot of even the forum users, who you'd think would be more aware of what this place is, should probably shuffle around their expectations somewhat.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[DeletedUser]

and that's that very few people playing on this server actually use the forums

Maybe we need some type of contest to encourage more forum registrations

 

[DeletedUser]

However, in the instances where they aren't caught, do we not then have a responsibility to catch these errors?

Ekhem, responsibility? We do spend our time playing beta server and give Inno plenty of data - we're not payed for that. And no, diaxes don't count, that's merely making testing easier, not payment.

I'd even go as far as to lock a player's city if they go x amount of time without submitting a feedback report, because this server does not exist just for people to play the game normally like any other server.

You believe in fairytales - hardly anyone would play then, why bother if I can get banned because I don't want to or don't have time to chase freaking bugs other people are payed to catch and fix?

You try to put resposibility for game on players - that's like "hey, I assaulted you, because you had short skirt, it's your fault!". Beta server is just what it is - a minefield for company and playing here does not put any resposibility for their incompetence on players.

EDIT: Normajeane - 2018-08-07 - tuned down one word.​

 

[DeletedUser7942]

I think you missed my underlying point in my post you quoted, and that's that very few people playing on this server actually use the forums.

I addressed that specifically, I said add it to the list, so I will Still, this is more of a Beta structure issue than a player issue and just because it was mentioned some time ago doesn't mean that it should not be the focus again.

Maybe we need some type of contest to encourage more forum registrations

That only partially address it. I'll repost my list with the addition mentioned by qaccy.

1) Amount of pertinent testers. The main problem is IG structures its Beta as if it's a Live server which is problematic in that you have a smaller percentage of players able to test the new age. How many players went into VF when it was released that even bothered posting here? I'm guessing maybe a couple?

2) Diamond Purchases. They allow diamond purchases on Beta so now you got people with expectations to get what they paid for despite it being a Beta server where the player should expect things to change.

3) Time. Is there enough time to actually test things? Some things don't even go through Beta, some things go through quickly, I think I recall an OF tier only being in Beta a couple of weeks, and some things like the GB interface stayed in Beta for months.

4) Amount of player base. They started doing limited live testing on things such as Daily Challenges apparently because there's not enough players here on Beta, which caused a big issue on live. So why no real effort to draw players here to test? I'm guessing part of the issue is related to #1 as not everyone wants to start a new city from the beginning and go through the entire game again just to test things. I'm sure occasional Live In-Game announcements with a link to Beta would go a long way, many players are not even aware a Beta exists.

5) Responsiveness. There are plenty of examples of their positive response here to player feedback so that is not so much an issue although the alarms were sounded by the players with Crystal Villa yet that went through anyway even though I think I recall IG making that up to players at some later point.

6) Lack of detailed information. There's not much detail we can look at when a new age is released. Take for example someone has to get to the tech with the new military unit in it, build it, make the unit, then they can finally see the stats, then hopefully they come around and post the stats for the rest of us to see. It took about a week for someone to finally post the Recurring Quests which would have been a debacle had it gone through live, thankfully the players called that one out and it got changed. This could be resolved by restructuring #1 or they can simply post more detailed information when it's released on Beta.

7) Enforcement. Sticks and carrots to get Beta players to report on issues in the forum.

 

[qaccy]

@FinkAdele I'm not really interested in having a ton of people playing on the beta server, if the alternative is a smaller group who actually do what beta testers are reasonably expected to do. You may be, like so many others these days, confusing 'beta' with 'early access'. Unfortunately even game developers/publishers are often guilty of this as well, but when I see the word 'beta' being used, I still have an expectation that anyone using said service not only is going to have an imperfect experience as it moves towards a full release, but is also going to help ensure that it happens as quickly and/or as thoroughly as possible.

Whether you want to believe it or not, the beta players DO have a role in QA. If that responsibility was solely with Inno, there would be no need for us to have the ability to report bugs via a bug report thread or ticket, correct? Because they would presumably catch every error before it ever even became available for us to experience. No, I believe the reality here is that Inno's focus is primarily on creating the content. Not to say they don't test anything, based on the relative stability of the game when new content is released I'm sure they do, and that's probably where their primary focus is - essentially, making sure that everything added to the game doesn't cause it to crash endlessly or otherwise make the game unplayable. Balancing (or fine-tuning it at least) is largely left to us via the first-hand experience of playing the game, something the developers can't reasonably be expected to do when they spend their working day, y'know...WORKING on the game. What avenues they actually use to determine when numbers need to be tweaked is anyone's guess, but it's pretty obvious that for better or for worse they don't actually consider themselves to have all of that responsibility.

That rape analogy is completely inappropriate, btw. Let's keep that sort of thing out of here, shall we?

 

[xivarmy]

However, in the instances where they aren't caught, do we not then have a responsibility to catch these errors? Like you say that Inno shouldn't be 'absolved' of any responsibility, neither should the people who are here on the beta server. While this is basically just voluntary, any player who catches a bug, exploit, or any other imbalance but fails to report it is just as guilty of allowing these issues to hit live servers, in my opinion. You have to remember that while Inno is responsible for maintaining the game, they're also incredibly focused on actually designing EVERYTHING that goes into it, not just checking for bugs. Again, that's why this server exists. Outside sets of eyes are often much better at spotting errors, or at least having different perspectives, than the ones who are actually working on a project. What might seem obvious to us could just be because we were not at all involved in the design process, and as such were not in the state of mind that could lead to overlooking such things in the process of actually creating it.

Perspectives are certainly something we offer. Finding rare bugs also sometimes a feature. Checking their math homework, sometimes we do it. Sometimes they don't even listen when we do it (see Crystal Villa disaster). Sometimes we can't do it, because we're not privy to what their design objectives were. We give reactions about things we're excited about, and things we're disappointed in and this is probably the most valuable function we can perform because we are not game designers and as bad as i think Inno mangles things, it'd be even worse if they listened to us all the time. But this server is not a responsibility for the players - it's a place for the developers to put things semi-live and see how they perform amongst a decent sized group of players without impacting live servers. The decision of when enough has been done to send it live is also theirs. That an oversight they failed to see, we failed to see too is not our fault - we don't even have the same access to information they do. Half the people in a new era feedback post are just there asking for information because who wants to put in serious effort for a couple years on a server they're not playing as a main to get to the new content? We have to wait for people to level the new buildings, fill out the wiki, beg for information on quests, units, etc.

As for the free diamonds, personally i burn mine on the start of events with new mechanics usually to get a feel for them without actually having to play them all the way through. It allows me to give reasonable feedback on how I feel about them without having to spend 3 weeks treating a server that's not my main like it is one.

The point still remains that anyone who used this unit before it got fixed would have an advantage over those who did not, via rewards gained through the much easier battles using them. If nobody came to the forums after this hypothetical error got fixed claiming they felt slighted by not getting the chance to use these imbalanced units, even with the reality of nobody having them anymore, I would be incredibly surprised. When exploits and imbalances get fixed, people only care how much (or how little) they personally got out of it beforehand, not that everyone's experience is equal. They eventually settle with the latter due to sour grapes: Since I didn't get to benefit, I don't want anyone else to either!

Well I'd be pretty pissed about CE through FE buildings being fixed after the fact now even though I have no intention of adding any more levels on my main server unless i just run out of things to do - because it'd be evidence that inno is continuing an off-the-cuff poorly thought-out visionless approach for the game and is throwing up obstacles for new players to have a hope of catching up.

I don't get pissed about units getting fixed because battles are primarily a win/loss scenario and unless the nerf makes some battles impossible or an age more boring the fact that 'someone else got to use the better railgun' for instance is not going to be a sore point for me.

@TheSlayerofSloppyJoes I think you missed my underlying point in my post you quoted, and that's that very few people playing on this server actually use the forums. Obviously forum users exist and some of them post, but even in that case only a fraction actually provide feedback (and usually only when it's negative). But regarding the whole beta server, you can bet that there is nowhere near a large portion of them posting here, and that's the problem I would think needs to be addressed. I'd even go as far as to lock a player's city if they go x amount of time without submitting a feedback report, because this server does not exist just for people to play the game normally like any other server. Again, this would require changes to beta's structure (which, again, I reminded you were discussed at one point in my post), but until that point is reached there still aren't enough players actually treating beta like a beta server either. You can see that easily by all the complaints that pour in from people who are unaware of what a beta environment entails, which in a nutshell includes bugs, typos, other errors, and a generally less-than-desirable playing experience. When I see people here complaining about something like mobile getting delayed event releases here on beta, or especially the almost-automatic 'where are the diamonds?' post on the first page of nearly every 'new content' feedback thread, it's a nice reminder that a lot of even the forum users, who you'd think would be more aware of what this place is, should probably shuffle around their expectations somewhat.

You're enough of a cheerleader for the rest of us It's infuriating how some of the most hamhanded decisions inno makes at times you leap to defend. One almost expects you're a secret employee account at times!

Yes, most feedback is going to be negative. Giving feedback takes work. Negative experiences give motivation to give feedback. Positive (or more likely neutral) experiences do not.

 

[DeletedUser]

What avenues they actually use to determine when numbers need to be tweaked is anyone's guess, but it's pretty obvious that for better or for worse they don't actually consider themselves to have all of that responsibility.

One would think, that resposibility comes with knowledge - and since I, as a player, am not delivered any knowledge about intentions standing behind creating new content, I feel absolutely no resposibility for mistakes or incorectnesses is has. The knowledge is theirs - and resposibility also all theirs. And, of course, yours, since you want so badly to be responsible for something...

 

[DeletedUser7942]

...we're not privy to what their design objectives were....we don't even have the same access to information they do. Half the people in a new era feedback post are just there asking for information because who wants to put in serious effort for a couple years on a server they're not playing as a main to get to the new content? We have to wait for people to level the new buildings, fill out the wiki, beg for information on quests, units, etc.

I just wanted to highlight those because that stuff is absolutely true. The disconnect between designer and feedback and lack of overall information causes a bizarre fractured relation in that we rarely get the intent of things and don't know any real overall game stats so we're left floundering about wondering what's right/wrong good/bad etc. it makes it difficult to structure feedback.

By the by, just to mention for the sake of mentioning it, Beta is not just about reporting bugs and stuff, says right on the front page "Join in discussions of the game, add suggestions, give feedback!"

 

[DeletedUser7942]

It was directed at qaccy not you, who i'm pretty sure is not actually an employee (particularly based on discussions based on units where he's in general alternating between constructive and critical like the rest of us) - just the way he fervently defends things at times sometimes makes it feel like he is

yeah I just saw my name in there and just responded, I edited it out now.

 

[xivarmy]

I just wanted to highlight those because that stuff is absolutely true. The disconnect between designer and feedback and lack of overall information causes a bizarre fractured relation in that we rarely get the intent of things and don't know any real overall game stats so we're left floundering about wondering what's right/wrong good/bad etc. it makes it difficult to structure feedback.

By the by, just to mention for the sake of mentioning it, Beta is not just about reporting bugs and stuff, says right on the front page "Join in discussions of the game, add suggestions, give feedback!"

They've actually also openly stated before that they don't WANT us to know what their thoughts were in creating things, because they don't want to bias our impressions.

 

[DeletedUser7942]

They've actually also openly stated before that they don't WANT us to know what their thoughts were in creating things, because they don't want to bias our impressions.

Well that's just plain silly, I'm certain we can think for ourselves. It was like the FP packs thing, I believe it took a while for them to delve into what the purpose was for the change. It's usually a good thing to always ask "what is the purpose" "what problem are we trying to fix" these sorts of things, you don't know where to go if you don't know why you're going to go in the first place.

So to the topic then, why does TA have to have more FP's than OF GB's? If the response is because as the game advances so should the requirements be higher, okay, then how do you explain PME, CE and AF?

Spoiler: Chart

Just wanted to add though you were right in a sense that AF is in the "right spot" so to speak, if we add 230 fp's to each age PME on up it goes like this;

PME 4540
CE 4770
TE 5000
FE 5230
AF 5460
OF 5690
VF 5920

 

[xivarmy]

Well that's just plain silly, I'm certain we can think for ourselves. It was like the FP packs thing, I believe it took a while for them to delve into what the purpose was for the change. It's usually a good thing to always ask "what is the purpose" "what problem are we trying to fix" these sorts of things, you don't know where to go if you don't know why you're going to go in the first place.

It serves its purpose. Your average player on live is not a forum personality or anything, so it doesn't matter what's actually 'right' to them, but how things feel. If they tell us 'this prize is supposed to be amazing', 'this prize is supposed to only be niche useful in these situations', etc it discourages people to convey their own impressions.

But it does point to 'checking their math' not being what we're here for except for possibly calling attention to the most egregious examples when we can find things that are so far off of their intentions we get more excited about them than they'd expected (See Winners' Plaza, Contestant's Estate, Sunken Treasure - though Crystal Villa was also in this department). Something that's just going to make VF buildings the 3rd most expensive age to level instead of the most expensive age? Not really our department.

 

[DeletedUser8961]

this is more of a Beta structure issue than a player issue

Agree, specially with points 1, 2 and 6. I have already tried to point out this issue, on this post: https://forum.beta.forgeofempires.c...-virtual-future-part-1.9195/page-9#post-64516

 

[NorMags]

but this isn't intended to be a normal game server where you just log in and go about a daily routine without ever making any comments, especially regarding new content.

Well, i guess Inno have to let everything on Beta be free then. Everybody have access to all research and all GB's without any cost from the day one starts playing here on Beta? Then everybody can check new content...

 

[DeletedUser7262]

i see you said ya'll fix the issue where you log out of beta and the maintenance screen would pop up. i have to say i still have that issue when i play on my computer but not on my tablet and since the updates are slow to hit my tablet i play mainly on my computer

 

[thephantom]

i see you said ya'll fix the issue where you log out of beta and the maintenance screen would pop up. i have to say i still have that issue when i play on my computer but not on my tablet and since the updates are slow to hit my tablet i play mainly on my computer

The Beta update has not yet taken place, so the fix is not yet here. The daily changelog is simply posted in advance.

 

[DeletedUser7262]

i just saw the update and it was fix sorry for jumping the gun