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Feedback Regarding Recent Feedback

I think I mentioned in this thread or another a long time back, another website I'm on has a weekly "ask the dev" where for an hour, a dev and other team members would answer questions from a topic and then close the thread. They even had a before the atd where people could post questions and a few of them were picked during the week to answer.

Maybe this would alleviate tension between users-devs to send them 3-5 questions per week and get answers back from the horses mouth if they seriously have to be separated from us.
 

CrashBoom

Legend
I will get back soon on your first two questions, and as for your third, the ideas will continue to be forwarded as per the existing procedure. Those having significant community support will be forwarded whereas those which are downvoted will obviously not be. DNSL and already suggested ideas are not forwarded, as usual. There is no absolutely change in the way we do those things.
so now ideas have only one number: the "votes"

so can you tell us what the number of "significiant support" is ?
20, 50, 100, or will that stay a secret ?
 

Thunderdome

Emperor
Left up to his own devices, my 3-year-old grandson would not eat the "unpleasant" veggies and would go straight for the dessert. Thankfully, there are adults in the room at mealtime.
I assure you, my veggies were nothing "unpleasant". Mum had always come up with ways of making them fun to eat (stir fry works best) as well as making them easier to eat (in the case of having a salty entre; I was glad for veggies to help balance the "ph" of the food). I still have a mum in this world but I guess I can say my skills in the culinary world are somewhat top notch as I do make meals for my other half and me (and she does the same) that are always "balanced". Now, desserts, I guess us older folks hardly fancy them like when we were kids. Maybe we took in too much in our past years.

The things we had gotten in the past are like desserts. If the same kind is being dished out, people are going to be sick and tired. If the same kind is being given out without a reason as to why, then it gets much worse. In the first year, the developers were attentive to the player's needs. I can remember a time where we, the players, had suggested on a chat (since most games had this feature) so we can communicate with each other rather than just shooting out random friend requests. Within time, Inno made it happen with Global chat; and there was a few times I saw the CM on it that I get to say "hello" as it was being tested out.

I'm sure that there are more things that happened since then, but with the way it goes now, it's like the developers threw a bone to the massive crowd and just sit back to watch as the carnage unfolds. Perhaps if they have the guts to come forth to state a reason why certain things were done, we don't have to have a frag fest between players, friends, and family in trying to figure out. We are not mind readers... better communication should be established/re-established because right now, players are losing faith and trust in Inno.

I don't mind spending for diamonds every now and then, but give me a good reason "why" instead of "I should". Make it interesting and not bland like a dessert.
 

DEADP00L

Emperor
Perk Creator
When we see the arguments or rather the non-arguments in threads of discussions which should be constructive, I understand that the developers do not come to discuss here.
There is enough to crack with those who turn in a loop without bringing anything, just to complain.
 

Thunderdome

Emperor
I often skip (or seldom respond to) those because I feel that it somewhat was going nowhere really fast (stagnant is a very strong word in this case). However, I do take the time to put forth my "dos centavos" (in Spanish, "two cents") either from self-experience or from those around me. While we can do without the "complaining" bits, the important element was still missing from all of this: the developer's take (or reasoning) for such (I mean from their own mouths and not from some "cut-and-paste" script that was in need of serious editing/proofreading before hitting the post button). Had they (Inno) led with "why" certain things have to happen instead of just letting us "speculate" on the reasons, we can have a better focus for discussion without detracting to other elements that might not be on topic.

In the times I was a moderator for a different game, I often took the time in engaging in others' topics; not because I have to, but because I was, too, a player just like them. I would be one that push through the administration team for answers, and if I cannot get them via that avenue, I would get them through my own support channel (yeah, I have my own "direct" line I had made through those I deemed worthy to step up to the plate with answers in a quickest form) so I can assure others that everything was alright. I retire from such as real life took precedence, but I do love to engage with others in conversation.
 

Emberguard

Emperor
One of the problems developers have with being directly engaged with the community once it gets large is dealing with hate-mail. Large communities are bound to have some bad apples. And it's counterproductive to have the developer directly exposed to a community determined to tell them what they just spent tons of time on is a pile of dung (even if that's not always the case there will inevitably be some that feel that way). Community managers as a filter help with the developer's sanity by putting people who are better at dealing with such things in the way.

It's the same reason very few celebrities/sports stars will run their own public social media accounts - it's not good for the soul to hear the unfiltered feedback of millions on your work.

Of course the strategy that community manager takes will vary from company to company - ranging from radio silence to openly engaging. Recent practices across various game communities I've followed has more companies leaning towards radio silence apart from official announcements (like what we've seen from inno). Not happy about it, but I'm sure there have been studies that support the practice that caused the trend.
If you aren't thick skinned enough to hear that you are working on a steaming pile of junk (I completely disagree that this is true for FoE or I wouldn't spend time in it) then developing is likely not for you. However, when I'm saying "developers" I'm meaning lead developers and the folks who determine the course of the product.
A person can start off "thick skinned" and still be worn down over time or become jaded. It is healthy for anyone regularly dealing with that sort of thing to take breaks or step back every now and then

I think I mentioned in this thread or another a long time back, another website I'm on has a weekly "ask the dev" where for an hour, a dev and other team members would answer questions from a topic and then close the thread. They even had a before the atd where people could post questions and a few of them were picked during the week to answer.

Maybe this would alleviate tension between users-devs to send them 3-5 questions per week and get answers back from the horses mouth if they seriously have to be separated from us.
InnoGames already do a live session of "ask the dev" - it's hosted over on Facebook. Think it's more like once a month, but they do already do that.
 

nice2haveu

Baronet
Sorry, am really confused about this thread.
Previous Feedback given are to be discussed again here, Is my understanding correct? If yes, then Why?
Or
Just letting our emotions how we got crucified inch by inch on deep planned new modified features into the game (example like GbG).

Is there anyone have information about earlier feedbacks given from the forum are at what level of state in the hands of developer. Did they atleast touch the hands of developer? What was the status?

Answer: .............
 

mcbluefire

Baronet
A person can start off "thick skinned" and still be worn down over time or become jaded. It is healthy for anyone regularly dealing with that sort of thing to take breaks or step back every now and then

Aye, but avoiding negative feedback by using a go-between is not a better solution. Let's face it, anyone who enjoyed this game enough to take a look at beta or join the beta forum is unlikely to say this is the biggest steaming pile of junk ever made. When they do it's pretty obvious they are not being rational and are attacking blindly because they are upset about one of their favorite forms of entertainment taking a turn they don't like or that concerns them greatly. All-in-all that form of feedback is to be taken with a huge grain of salt and stored away as a dislike for whatever change was being addressed and not to be taken as everything about the game is beyond repair. This type of feedback even deserves to be deleted/edited as addressed by the forum rules. So technically I don't see it as a continuous issue nor as a solid reason for the devs not to come to the forums.
 

Leones

Marquis
Aye, but avoiding negative feedback by using a go-between is not a better solution. Let's face it, anyone who enjoyed this game enough to take a look at beta or join the beta forum is unlikely to say this is the biggest steaming pile of junk ever made. When they do it's pretty obvious they are not being rational and are attacking blindly because they are upset about one of their favorite forms of entertainment taking a turn they don't like or that concerns them greatly. All-in-all that form of feedback is to be taken with a huge grain of salt and stored away as a dislike for whatever change was being addressed and not to be taken as everything about the game is beyond repair. This type of feedback even deserves to be deleted/edited as addressed by the forum rules. So technically I don't see it as a continuous issue nor as a solid reason for the devs not to come to the forums.
Just because the community management team exists doesn't mean negative feedback is ignored. It just goes through an intermediary first, who collects that feedback and presents it in a clear format so it can be easily digested. Reading the (currently) 137 pages of feedback is not feasible for a game designer, developer or product manager; they have better things to do.
 

kawada

Marquis
Just because the community management team exists doesn't mean negative feedback is ignored. It just goes through an intermediary first, who collects that feedback and presents it in a clear format so it can be easily digested. Reading the (currently) 137 pages of feedback is not feasible for a game designer, developer or product manager; they have better things to do.
Well, let’s be honest - key feedback has been provided after / during the first round of the voting 2 weeks ago. But since Inno did not address it at all and made up this second round thingy, players are discussing pretty much the same stuff back and forth.
 

Thunderdome

Emperor
Reading the (currently) 137 pages of feedback is not feasible for a game designer, developer or product manager; they have better things to do.
Basically, "laziness" is a strong trait among the development/management team. Second to "procrastination" if I may add. If it gets to 137 pages that someone started to read upon, obviously, someone is not doing their job.

It's kind of funny as there can be up to 5 new pages of feedback from other players each day on a thread that I managed to take the time in reading before responding to a few of those that warrant my interest in doing so or putting forth my take on it as a whole. Maybe I am one of those kind of people that enjoy reading and understanding.
they have better things to do.
Like breaking a game with something THEY don't even test themselves or know the game fully on. Or, distracting the masses from the real problems at hand, that if they had done their jobs, the game would be a nicer place for all the players... not a select few. Do you mean those "better things to do"?
 

mcbluefire

Baronet
Just because the community management team exists doesn't mean negative feedback is ignored. It just goes through an intermediary first, who collects that feedback and presents it in a clear format so it can be easily digested. Reading the (currently) 137 pages of feedback is not feasible for a game designer, developer or product manager; they have better things to do.

I do too, and yet as someone with a vested, uncompensated, interest I read it.

It is highly unlikely there would be 137 pages of discussion if someone would get in there and answer questions and provide information to stop the conjecture and arguing as there would be comprehension of why this should be done specifically what is attempting to be measured or corrected.

They are too far removed from their audience and it shows with items I pointed out a bit back on this thread.

Please note, I'm not attempting to indicate community managers hide negative feedback, but rather it can be restructured in such a way that intended meaning is lost and the solution to correct the negative feedback misses the mark. For an example I'd use the rather common negative feedback about the frequency of events. Personally I think it's a bit much and this year seems to have even more, but at the same time I know we can ignore them if we so choose. Now we can presume (since we are not in a fully interactive conversation) that no one on the dev team has ever heard that some players find it stressful to have "so many" events a year. I doubt it, but it's a fair assumption considering that this year is seeing a record number of events. Granted the reality is probably that the events are the largest diamond sinks in the game and they probably drive spending actual money to have enough diamonds for the upcoming event. But then we haven't been told that either. I for one want FOE to be successful and remain the top game for Inno. Personally I don't see how it would hurt Inno to share what their top priorities are and why.

@Leones @Juber Again, I ask: "Would it be in bad taste to ever share what is filtered up at some point? Just a curiosity thing. I could see a high level post of "recent feedback shared" with not everything you share, but highlights of what was sent to the devs. Could potentially quell repeated questions as folks would see that their concern was added to the bridge."

If, in a thread, every once in a while there was a post from community managers stating "a, b, and c, have been sent to the devs for consideration" don't you think points a, b, and c would have less discussion in the ongoing thread? This would demonstrate you all are listening and bubbling. It's not that we don't think you do, it's that we have no idea what you are taking back to the devs. I can't speak for everyone, but if the devs had an immediate reaction of "I don't think that would ever be feasible; ROFL, nope; or hmmm, we'll discuss that sometime" it would go a long way to calm the beta forum versus just relying on the announcement and "we are gathering feedback."
 

DEADP00L

Emperor
Perk Creator
@mcbluefire :
I do not question the feedback from the CMs but the directives from the parent company.
For example, I know from a reliable source that the suggestions validated by a community should only be uploaded by a single sentence.
However, some suggestions cannot be summed up in one sentence.

The same goes for feedback from our questions. Even if the summary would be perfectly realized, it would be good to obtain simple answers: under consideration (as long as it does not last 10 years) or refused or other project on the planned evolution.

It's all well and good on Inno's part to want transparency, but apart from a publicity stunt on the salary of its employees, I see no transparency, nor even the slightest respect towards its customers. The worst thing is that recently, Inno has even promoted one of these employees in charge of communication.
 

Leones

Marquis
Basically, "laziness" is a strong trait among the development/management team. Second to "procrastination" if I may add. If it gets to 137 pages that someone started to read upon, obviously, someone is not doing their job.

It's kind of funny as there can be up to 5 new pages of feedback from other players each day on a thread that I managed to take the time in reading before responding to a few of those that warrant my interest in doing so or putting forth my take on it as a whole. Maybe I am one of those kind of people that enjoy reading and understanding.

Like breaking a game with something THEY don't even test themselves or know the game fully on. Or, distracting the masses from the real problems at hand, that if they had done their jobs, the game would be a nicer place for all the players... not a select few. Do you mean those "better things to do"?
Laziness... No. But there are only 8 hours in a work day and there are things that have to be done. There are many places feedback can come from; this forum, social media, support tickets, in-game chat, reviews, etc. And that feedback is spread over multiple language versions of the game. We as community managers summarize that feedback, and make sure it's presented in an easily readable and understandable way, so that it can be used during meetings and product management doesn't have to go looking everywhere for it, that's literally our job.

Transparency or details about a decision won't change just because there are multiple layers between the players and the person ultimately responsible for a decision, but because such information is just not something we can divulge at that time, for internal reasons. We will however look into the possibility to get slightly more information about certain decisions back to you, but I can't make any promises at this time.

I do too, and yet as someone with a vested, uncompensated, interest I read it.

It is highly unlikely there would be 137 pages of discussion if someone would get in there and answer questions and provide information to stop the conjecture and arguing as there would be comprehension of why this should be done specifically what is attempting to be measured or corrected.

They are too far removed from their audience and it shows with items I pointed out a bit back on this thread.

Please note, I'm not attempting to indicate community managers hide negative feedback, but rather it can be restructured in such a way that intended meaning is lost and the solution to correct the negative feedback misses the mark. For an example I'd use the rather common negative feedback about the frequency of events. Personally I think it's a bit much and this year seems to have even more, but at the same time I know we can ignore them if we so choose. Now we can presume (since we are not in a fully interactive conversation) that no one on the dev team has ever heard that some players find it stressful to have "so many" events a year. I doubt it, but it's a fair assumption considering that this year is seeing a record number of events. Granted the reality is probably that the events are the largest diamond sinks in the game and they probably drive spending actual money to have enough diamonds for the upcoming event. But then we haven't been told that either. I for one want FOE to be successful and remain the top game for Inno. Personally I don't see how it would hurt Inno to share what their top priorities are and why.

@Leones @Juber Again, I ask: "Would it be in bad taste to ever share what is filtered up at some point? Just a curiosity thing. I could see a high level post of "recent feedback shared" with not everything you share, but highlights of what was sent to the devs. Could potentially quell repeated questions as folks would see that their concern was added to the bridge."

If, in a thread, every once in a while there was a post from community managers stating "a, b, and c, have been sent to the devs for consideration" don't you think points a, b, and c would have less discussion in the ongoing thread? This would demonstrate you all are listening and bubbling. It's not that we don't think you do, it's that we have no idea what you are taking back to the devs. I can't speak for everyone, but if the devs had an immediate reaction of "I don't think that would ever be feasible; ROFL, nope; or hmmm, we'll discuss that sometime" it would go a long way to calm the beta forum versus just relying on the announcement and "we are gathering feedback."
We are interested in feedback, which is why Juber and I and the entire community management team are here to collect feedback, interact with players and to pass everything on.

Forum feedback is just one thing out of many that give us a direction. While it's extremely valuable, as it offers players a way to discuss amongst themselves and come to their own conclusions and lets us see both the arguments for and against, it's by no means the only thing that drives our decisions. We do have our own information and data we use, we have game designers making concepts and throwing out ideas, and generally a lot of professionals working hard to make this game the best we can. Sometimes the feedback from players and our data align, which makes things easy. Sometimes they don't, like with events. We can see comments that players are burnt out with events, that there are too many, but at the same time our data shows a lot of players are still actively participating in them. That makes things difficult and we need to find a middle ground somewhere to (mostly) please everyone. Rest assured though that the development team are aware that there are some players who feel like there are too many events right now.

I will pass on that there is a need for more transparency, more detailed comments on what is forwarded, and even more information about what actually is forwarded, but do keep in mind that such changes can take some time, if they are even implemented at all. It's at least something for when Juber gets back next week.

@mcbluefire :
I do not question the feedback from the CMs but the directives from the parent company.
For example, I know from a reliable source that the suggestions validated by a community should only be uploaded by a single sentence.
However, some suggestions cannot be summed up in one sentence.

The same goes for feedback from our questions. Even if the summary would be perfectly realized, it would be good to obtain simple answers: under consideration (as long as it does not last 10 years) or refused or other project on the planned evolution.

It's all well and good on Inno's part to want transparency, but apart from a publicity stunt on the salary of its employees, I see no transparency, nor even the slightest respect towards its customers. The worst thing is that recently, Inno has even promoted one of these employees in charge of communication.
Ideas are indeed summarized when they are passed on the first time, but, quite honestly, if an idea cannot be summed up adequately in one or two sentences, the chance it'll be implemented is quite slim. We're generally not looking for massive new ideas like a new game mode, guild battles or a new age, but smaller QOL ideas which can be summed up and are easy to understand and possibly implement.

If we can, feedback from whether ideas are implemented or not is passed on, but sometimes ideas can stay around for months or years before they're looked at and we decide whether or not to implement them.
 

kawada

Marquis
Laziness... No. But there are only 8 hours in a work day and there are things that have to be done. There are many places feedback can come from; this forum, social media, support tickets, in-game chat, reviews, etc.
Inno resources should not be our problem. Hire / allocated more people is current team cannot handle everything in timely manner.
 
How about we all cut the Devs and the CMs a little slack? Unless you have never been employed in a corporate setting you should appreciate the obstacles that bureaucracy often causes. I think that they are good people trying to perform a difficult balancing act. How would you feel if, nearly every day, you came to work to read mean-spirited commentary from the customers that you are trying to serve? INNO is in the business of selling a profitable product and, thus far, they have been highly successful. They are under no obligation to pay any attention to what is written on this Forum in a "timely" manner, or any other manner for that matter.
 

Emberguard

Emperor
Inno resources should not be our problem. Hire / allocated more people is current team cannot handle everything in timely manner.
I can't imagine a additional Developer would change anything. There's a reason companies usually have UX Designer as a entirely separate role from Developer. Partly because if you can get a expert in the field then they'll do a better job than the developers ever could (because all their energy is being directed on the one task), and partly because it's just so time consuming that UX is a full time job on its own.

Like how in a restaurant you wouldn't expect the Chef to have the time to both cook the meal and do all the front of house tasks. You either would never get any food actually cooked if the chef had to take the orders and facilitate every transaction, or it'd tie them down so much trying to do everything themselves that the entire service would degrade in comparison to having a dedicated person to the task of serving.

It wouldn't hurt for the developers to come on from time to time to keep an eye on things, but realistically there's only so much we could expect a developer to put into that unless they're trying to do it all themselves
 
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