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Discussion Reasons to not remove the limit of GBs Bonuses?

Dessire

Regent
Hello and good day.
As you should know, certain great buildings have a limit in their bonuses. The Arc reaches it's limit at level 180, the Temple of Relics from level 112 to 133 has the same %, it changes by 0.25 at level 134. The space carrier, seed vault himeji, the flying island and others suffer for something similar.

Which are the reasons to not change that?
I mean, for example, if a players wants to have the arc at level 200 with 102%, why not allow that? Is not as if for reaching level 180 with the previously mentioned GB they will break the game or have a huuuge advantage against other players.

To reach level 200 with the arc, from level 180, you need more than 1.3 milliond of forge points! It, the same to level it up from 0 to 180! Why put a limit for such amou of fps and specially consindering the fact that they will not break the game by doing that?

I would love to have my seed vault with a 30% chance at level 180, but it seems that at 180 is like 24%!!

I would love to have 90% of chance with my blue galaxy at level 180, or 75% of chance with himeji and the space carrier, or 70% with the flying island.

You break more the game by using cheats, by being toxic, you have huge advantages if you buy a lot of diamonds, but by spending millions of FPs to have the %s I mentioned before you won't break the game.

So again, which are the reasons to not remove those limits or at least increase the % you can reach at level 180 with certain great buildings? Why with GBs like cape, frontenac, monte, innovation tower, etc. We don't have those limits too then?
 

xivarmy

Overlord
Perk Creator
It seems to be a general principle with more recent GBs (FE+) that they like that higher levels have less of a benefit - this aids in game balance decisions because the person with level 150 buildings isn't necessarily that far ahead of the person with level 80 buildings in capabilities (still pretty far though).

Honestly it's not that big a deal unless you really are running out of *everything* you could invest in. So your arc has no reason to go further than 180, work on another building. i.e. Lv 201 AO for a nice round 50% crit chance sounds like a nice impractical goal to me - and is about twice the total cost of a level 180 arc, should keep you busy a while.
 

CrashBoom

Legend
the worst of those caps: Star Gazer

why can't that building give +1 good every level ?
the other GBs (which give unrefined goods) have +2 (but 2 ages lower than Gazer) goods every level but also have a 2nd useful bonus


i.e. Lv 201 AO for a nice round 50% crit chance sounds like a nice impractical goal to me - and is about twice the total cost of a level 180 arc, should keep you busy a while.
but that building shows it doesn't need a cap

level 202 gives another 0.07% (according to fandom wiki)
 

Ironrooster

Baronet
I would love to see better increases for the first 10 levels. For example Alcatraz only gives 8units for level 10. Surely that could be raised to at least 10 units.

And bump up some of the others as well in the first 10 levels.
 

CrashBoom

Legend
I would love to see better increases for the first 10 levels. For example Alcatraz only gives 8units for level 10. Surely that could be raised to at least 10 units.

And bump up some of the others as well in the first 10 levels.
Alca units is one of very few GB bonus where the first 10 levels (0.8 units average per level) are worse than higher levels (1 unit per level) o_O

the goods of the Observatory too
 
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DEADP00L

Emperor
Perk Creator
Instead of wanting to increase the popular GBs, don't you think that others should simply be reviewed, especially with the current changes such as the nerf to the GbGs?

Who landed a Virgo?
Its number of attempts (5 from level 45 to 110) does not encourage you to ask it.

Who still poses Notre Dame or Colosseum?
Since the removal of satisfaction in the calculation of fights, nobody cares about it anymore.

Who poses Deal's castle?
Neither Happiness nor Medals are justifiable enough to spend FP on.

Do you see a lot of Lotus Temple or Gaea Statue in your friends or neighbors?

Even if it means modifying GBs, the Ark, the Alcatraz and the Star Gazer, which you mention, should not be the priority.
 
While I cannot think of a reason for not applying diminishing returns to each additional level and removing the limits is this really a thing? I mean, there are fewer than 12 L180 Arcs on each of the US servers worlds that I play. On my main world my Arc is L158 and my other key GBs are L80-104 which means I have years of work ahead of me just getting them to the current limits. Certainly, there are some number of players whose GBs are much closer to the max but are there enough to motivate INNO to adjust the maximums? I dunno but there's no harm in asking.
 

xivarmy

Overlord
Perk Creator
the worst of those caps: Star Gazer

why can't that building give +1 good every level ?
the other GBs (which give unrefined goods) have +2 (but 2 ages lower than Gazer) goods every level but also have a 2nd useful bonus



but that building shows it doesn't need a cap

level 202 gives another 0.07% (according to fandom wiki)

Yes, not a hard limit yes, but it is less and less per level - so eventually one presumes its limit will show (it peaks around 0.3% / level around level 90-100, and then starts to slow down).

And I think they leaned harder in that direction after it - things like BG, HC, etc seem to have much stronger ceilings that ask "why would you even think about taking this past <some level in the 90s>?"
 

Goldra

Marquis
In my opinion, having a limit on GB is what focus you on reach it. If there's no limit on ark, in what level would you stop? 150? 120? The big amount of fp needed to reach the level 180, wouldnt make people to arrive at this level. So, limits are a way to focus players on personal achievements.
In this way, inno could add some achievements or new stuff/bonus, for reaching the bonus limit of a GB, or adding it when you reach x level.
In other hand, a lot of times we have argued about the GB are getting obsolet. This is why new GB has new kind of bonus. It started with ark in future: critical hit, spoils of war, diplomatic gifts, first strike, mysterious shards... this new way of bonus makes that GB under future are obsolet and useless, except the ones that boost troops or gives fp or frontenac.
 

CrashBoom

Legend
In my opinion, having a limit on GB is what focus you on reach it.
but then GB should have a limit :rolleyes:
at level x it ends

but that isn't the case
the concept of GB is designed to have NO limit

so the main question of this thread remains:
why having unlimited GB with limited bonus :rolleyes:

to make it clear
GB don't have a limit. GB bonus have
and that doesn't make sense :rolleyes:

So, limits are a way to focus players on personal achievements.
no limits are a personal achievement:
no limit Arc boost --> I can have the highest Arc boost
Arc limited at 100% --> my Arc is one of 20 !!! in my world at level 180+
(one is even at level 184 !!! why wasting 50k+ FP per level for guild goods only)

at least I have my personal Arc achievement nobody can take away from (even when most don't even know that fact): I had the FIRST level 180 in my world
 

Kronan

Viceroy
When the game was built 10 years ago, no one had the vision for the immense scalability needed now (10 years later). The decision to FP inflate the game from the lowly "SoK" and the 5 FP items we lived with and worked hard to get (Terrace Farms, Indian Palace sets...) was conscious. The BG doubles city generation too.

5 or 6 years ago, we all used to marvel at how much 350 daily collected "native" FP actually was. But with some people now routinely making (collecting) 1500 FP/day, it's got to go somewhere and it goes where it should: To instruments that continue to make that grow for the user... the ARC, CF and AO - all good choices because they continue to grow expensively but infinitely (AO and CF do, Arc gets "boost-capped").

This will feed itself geometrically and theoretically, until there is almost nothing more to do with the FP - because the game wasn't designed to scale at this level, and Inno isn't going to make it do so. They've tried, and we just knock down the obstacles.

There are more ARCs on the journey to 180, than ever before. It's a darn pilgrimage, for sure. When you make thousands or 10,000 FP a day, you have to do something with it. Million FP banks are much more common, as people have run out ideas to use it on - or things to lift.

Are you going to lift a Zeus for just 1% more A/D for a combined, 2 levels (113-115) totaling nearly 7000 FP (owner FP cost)? How ridiculous is that?

The game does not scale well
for indefinite playing. You run out of create ideas, and since 85% of what you do each day is to lift GBs and help others do theirs - you many times might wonder what's fresh and exciting and intellectually constructive to do in FoE.

This game is designed for the awe and wonder of new players figuring out how to get to where many FoE veterans are now - and spending their money to do that.
 
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xivarmy

Overlord
Perk Creator
When the game was built 10 years ago, no one had the vision for the immense scalability needed now (10 years later). The decision to FP inflate the game from the lowly "SoK" and the 5 FP items we lived with and worked hard to get (Terrace Farms, Indian Palace sets...) was conscious. The BG doubles city generation too.

5 or 6 years ago, we all used to marvel at how much 350 daily collected "native" FP actually was. But with some people now routinely making (collecting) 1500 FP/day, it's got to go somewhere and it goes where it should: To instruments that continue to make that grow for the user... the ARC, CF and AO - all good choices because they continue to grow expensively but infinitely (AO and CF do, Arc gets "boost-capped").

This will feed itself geometrically and theoretically, until there is almost nothing more to do with the FP - because the game wasn't designed to scale at this level, and Inno isn't going to make it do so. They've tried, and we just knock down the obstacles.

There are more ARCs on the journey to 180, than ever before. It's a darn pilgrimage, for sure. When you make thousands or 10,000 FP a day, you have to do something with it. Million FP banks are much more common, as people have run out ideas to use it on - or things to lift.

You going to lift a Zeus for 1% more A/D for combined, 2 levels (113-115) totaling nearly 7000 FP (owner cost)? How ridiculous is that?

The game does not scale well for indefinite playing. You run out of create ideas, and since 85% of what you do each day is to lift GBs and help others do theirs - you many times might wonder what's fresh and exciting and intellectually constructive to do in FoE.

This game is designed for the awe and wonder of new players figuring out how to get to where many FoE veterans are now - and spending their money to do that.

While it was undoubtedly a conscious decision to FP-inflate building productions, one could make the case it was a bit short-sighted to go so far so fast. I remember when the level 2 cherry set came out - i was still thrilled by the level 1 cherry set as a balance between attack and FP production, and now it was going to just be flat out better than SoKs (which at the time were still a standard that everything got compared against) - and have twice the attack it used to!

Of course if they'd stopped there for a while, all would've been great - but they just kept going for the next couple years after that. They kept topping themself quite frequently. And then I guess realized they might be going too far and the improvements got both less frequent and lower in magnitude.

The last time they released a new-best in all-round buildings it was the Eagle Mountain from last year's wildlife. There's been a few more "almost as good" since then such that the top-10 "all-purpose" event buildings (based on my own informal ratings), are mostly from within the last 1-2 years. Single-purpose-driven ones like "best attack for attacking army" are often considerably older (winners plaza lv 2 in SA, or fall fields in lower ages).

And they do occasionally still put out a bit of a stinker that makes you think it belonged 3+ years ago. Sometimes met with a grudging buff when they get called on it. Once even *after* live release (hello Fiore Village that no one really wanted until it got buffed - that event must've been flopping hard!)

I think they could've gotten here less quickly and still had people excited along the way for new stuff. Such that new power-creep that excites people wouldn't have to be quite as metered these days.

---

As for what to do with all those extra FPs we make these days: As a grumpy longtime player, I never really loved the idea of the Arc-180 journey. It feels more like busywork than continued advancement, and so I just sorta stopped trying as much instead of picking up such a project. I mean I could work super-hard and start making that journey - but it doesn't sound like fun in either the journey or the destination. I do have ~lv130 CFs on a couple worlds.

Mostly where I find joy these days is new worlds. I have to somehow come up with a way that world will be different or a planned endpoint where I can go "and now I'm done with it, satisfied with having accomplished my goals" so that it doesn't just turn into another world in the same situation I'm bored of. But as long as I can do that I can have some fun making that come about using varied tools that would be "not worth the time and effort" on my older worlds.
 

Kronan

Viceroy
Yes, it's always fascinated me that a brand new GB, like the HC, stops being optimally efficient @ level 58. Of course you can lift it higher, but if you've done the math on it - it's increasingly costly, for hardly much more value. But why was it designed to be so "capped" as a new GB in the first place? Give it a longer "run" for investment and, value.

But we're so desperate to do something with this FP we earn, we just do it - insane or not.

We've all witnessed the "new GB mating rituals" here in FoE, when a desirable new GB is released with a new era.

I'm sure you did too, but I witnessed (participated in) the new GB feeding frenzy when the Galata Tower came out. At the start, it's like a LARGE school of very big Piranhas gobbling up reward positions with reckless abandon - throwing insane amounts of FP on them way outside any sense of reasonability.

2 hours later, if that long.... that building is 100 levels higher, and this frivolity continues, family tree style, for a few days, if not a week or a month. Some owners don't add anything at all to help it level, until the ascent needs some help, and it start becoming a 1.9 power lift - ie, it cools off from white-hot to just red-hot.

In fact, I got 5 new lift topic in the first hour of the GT GB's birth. They're sent from all "friends" each in 1 message.

Inno has tried to slow us down with double roads, double goods processing, special ores (Promethium, etc) and other subtle game changes (nerfing things...). But the player community does have game momentum, and it's very hard to stop our investments from years of doing what they want us to do - play the game.

I would support a review of "second floor" for each GB in the game - a level II (Level 2) if you will. For example, get these GBs to a primary lift level, and they go into a new dimension for that GB - to refresh interest and continue to support the city.

GBs can be designed to act like a Statue of Honor, so you continue to lift it above its primary offerings in Level 1. People leave the game because it has lost it's intellectual challenge and it needs an avenue back to that.

The GB should not become a superfluous concept, it should continue to grow and be refreshed for value, too.
 
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xivarmy

Overlord
Perk Creator
Yes, it's always fascinated me that a brand new GB, like the HC, stops being optimally efficient @ level 58. Of course you can lift it higher, but if you've done the math on it - it's increasingly costly, for hardly much more value. By why was it design to be so "capped" as a new GB? Give it a longer "run" for investment and, value.

But we're so desperate to do something with this FP we earn, we just do it - insane or not.

We've all witnessed the "new GB mating rituals" here in FoE, when a desirable new GB is released with a new era.

I'm sure you did too, but I witnessed (participated in) the new GB feeding frenzy when the Galata Tower came out. At the start, it's like a LARGE school of very big Piranhas gobbling up reward positions with reckless abandon - throwing insane amounts of FP on them way outside any sense of reasonability.

2 hours later, if that long.... that building is 100 levels higher, and this frivolity continues, family tree style, for a few days, if not a week or a month. Some owners don't add anything at all to help it level, until the ascent needs some help, and it start becoming a 1.9 power lift - ie, it cools off from white-hot to just red-hot.

In fact, I got 5 new lift topic in the first hour of the GT GB's birth. They're sent from all "friends" each in 1 message.

Inno has tried to slow us down with double roads, double goods processing, special ores (Promethium, etc) and other subtle game changes (nerfing things...). But the player community does have game momentum, and it's very hard to stop our investments from years of doing what they want us to do - play the game.

I would support a review of "second floor" for each GB in the game - a level II (Level 2) if you will. For example, get these GBs to a primary lift level, and they go into a new dimension for that GB - to refresh interest and continue to support the city.

GBs can be designed to act like a Statue of Honor, so you continue to lift it above its primary offerings in Level 1. People leave the game because it has lost it's intellectual challenge and it needs an avenue back to that.

The GB should not become a superfluous concept, it should continue to grow and be refreshed for value, too.
Galata was a particularly special drop because people who don't usually get to participate in the "new GB frenzy" with a new age got to play too. When new ages hit in the first few days I always get lots of requests for new age goods from lower age friends. And usually say "check back in a few weeks, for the moment I need 11k of each for my tech tree". So they don't really get to play unless they have a sponsor who wants them raising the building to get prints off of.

Galata was different because all they needed was prints and then they could join in.
 

Kronan

Viceroy
@xivarmy

I think you'll agree it's the same for any new GB - be it the GT (agree - it was especially accessible for younger era players, but the game "whales" really controlled the action...) or the SC, AI Core, or Flying Island. It's just insane what happens. It's like" back up the ice-cream truck" - then say - it's all "FREE" for the next hour, all you can eat! ;)

Hear you on the goods. Kit's for the SC good, when it came out were going for 5000 FP to the "seller". It cooled quickly, but to be first, people paid that to have the first ones. So they pay that to the seller for the goods, and then the frenzy lifts it for free for at least 50 level - at no cost to the owner.

Well spent 5K, eh?
 

xivarmy

Overlord
Perk Creator
@xivarmy

I think you'll agree it's the same for any new GB - be it the GT (agree - it was especially accessible for younger era players, but the game "whales" really controlled the action...) or the SC, AI Core, or Flying Island. It's just insane what happens. It's like" back up the ice-cream truck" - then say - it's all "FREE" for the next hour, all you can eat! ;)

Hear you on the goods. Kit's for the SC good, when it came out were going for 5000 FP to the "seller". It cooled quickly, but to be first, people paid that to have the first ones. So they pay that to the seller for the goods, and then the frenzy lifts it for free for at least 50 level - at no cost to the owner.

Well spent 5K, eh?

I certainly remember that in the past yea.

The last couple ages haven't had that kind of frenzy because most of the people that would move the building just went "eh? I don't think I care". But I've still had lots of messages from lower age players who wanted to give it a go :)

The last one I personally participated in the rush was HC. I worked so hard at manufacturing sets for that one so my contacts could get it up :)
 
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