New Idea Opt out of the diamond league

[Mouldyy]

Reason

There are two guilds with 75+ players that take turns owning all the territories in minutes. If we're lucky one of us gets 8 to 10 fights in a day. The other five guilds who have a lot more members have the same problem. QI and GE are set up for smaller guilds, GBG should be too. We are not getting bigger. We want to get are fights in. We don't care about winning or points only coins. We play trial 25. We want the option to stay in platinum or lower. GBG sucks! as is. We want are diamonds!

Details

I did

Balance

More fair

Abuse Prevention

Don't know

Summary

Make GBG fair lle the other two

Have you looked to see if this has already been suggested?

Nope

I only have three players and it's impossible to compete in diamond league.

 

[CrashBoom]

you already can opt out of GBG

and it is very easy:
the guild just needs to make less than 20 advance points (20 fights / 10 negotiations) during the season
(less than 40 advances before they divided it by 2. maybe it is still 40. but to be sure you should stay below 20)

then the guild gets removed from GBG

and after that you just need to sign in before the next season starts
and you start from 0 again

 

[Thunderdome]

WOW, Really?

I was wondering about that.

 

[planetofthehumans2]

you already can opt out of GBG

and it is very easy:
the guild just needs to make less than 20 advance points (20 fights / 10 negotiations) during the season
(less than 40 advances before they divided it by 2. maybe it is still 40. but to be sure you should stay below 20)

then the guild gets removed from GBG

and after that you just need to sign in before the next season starts
and you start from 0 again

How about we just go with OP's suggestion which would be a lot easier on the guild side to manage an opt-in rather than a total opt out where nobody can participate. Inno's current policy is wild and hurts everyone in the guild by not letting them get literally anything for an entire session.

I voted up for this.

 

[CrashBoom]

How about we just go with OP's suggestion which would be a lot easier on the guild side to manage an opt-in rather than a total opt out where nobody can participate. Inno's current policy is wild and hurts everyone in the guild by not letting them get literally anything for an entire session.

I voted up for this.

but what when good guilds also opt out of diamond league
to avoid the top guilds ?

then the bad diamond guild still meets those good diamond guilds
just in platinum league

QI and GE are set up for smaller guilds, GBG should be too

in QI and GE you don't fight against other guilds
you play alone and then compare the end result

do you REALLY want that for GBG ?
no other guilds on the map. you play alone
and then compare the end result ?

 

[planetofthehumans2]

but what when good guilds also opt out of diamond league
to avoid the top guilds ?

then the bad diamond guild still meets those good diamond guilds
just in platinum league


in QI and GE you don't fight against other guilds
you play alone and then compare the end result

do you want that for GBG ?
no other guilds on the map. you play alone
and then compare the end result ?

Then I'd love to see what inno does next. I've always supported an opt-in system. Good guilds arn't going to stay at the bottom, they will rise to the top if they want to. It just hurts guilds to be put higher than what they can manage (and also lower than what they can manage, people will always seek the top price). Inno gives us the trials to choose our difficulty, why not let the guild choose the bracket?

 

[CrashBoom]

in my opinion opt out is open to abuse if guilds can decide where to play

I support the "not let in"-system
only guilds with 61+ can advance to diamonds
41+ to platinum
21+ to gold
10+ to silver
and guilds with less than 10 players have to stay in bronze league

 

[Thunderdome]

only guilds with 61+ can advance to diamonds
41+ to platinum
21+ to gold
10+ to silver
and guilds with less than 10 players have to stay in bronze league

I am not in support of this kind of restriction, mate, considering our guild is made up of 5 members that deserve a shot in diamond with LIKE KIND (similar) matching. However, we've been firing our vast supply of photon torpedoes with other guilds in our little circle versus 4 members (only for Friends), 15 members (Odyssey), and 61 members (Progress). We're hoping they're having fun as much as we had going ourselves.

However, if the powers be, might as well scale those rewards from diamond to the other leagues because no guild wants to try and recruit (or had no desire for) others just to try to get to a bracket.

Now, I am a firm believer that if a guild chooses not to participate in a round then they will have to be sent to the back of the line (all the way to the bottom). That's the bit I would support. And we might do that when we age up onto a point where we want to build up our treasury for the next age, systematically. Else, Inno needs to make matching the same way they did guild matching on GEx where it is ones with as close to the same number of each other but within tiers on diamond (or any other league).


From Diamond (Special Round)

 

[prblow]

in my opinion opt out is open to abuse if guilds can decide where to play

I support the "not let in"-system
only guilds with 61+ can advance to diamonds
41+ to platinum
21+ to gold
10+ to silver
and guilds with less than 10 players have to stay in bronze league

From what i've seen that would make the Bronze League stronger than the Platinum League.
In our case we have 32 players, only 4 have done more than 12 battles, with 26 on zero.

I agree with the idea suggested.

My guild is currently ranked 60th best on the live server, but we are stuck in a corner fighting a diamond league battle. There are three other guilds stuck in their bases. We have never won anything more than a few fragments of the main prize building we are supposed to be fighting for. What is the motivation for us making an effort in GBG? At least if we have some fights we get to buy some odds and ends from the store.

 

[planetofthehumans2]

If you guys agree with OP then vote up on the idea. Nothing will happen without votes.

 

[CrashBoom]

If you guys disagree with OP then vote down on the idea.

 

[xivarmy]

Then I'd love to see what inno does next. I've always supported an opt-in system. Good guilds arn't going to stay at the bottom, they will rise to the top if they want to. It just hurts guilds to be put higher than what they can manage (and also lower than what they can manage, people will always seek the top price). Inno gives us the trials to choose our difficulty, why not let the guild choose the bracket?

As poor as inno's decisions may be atm, i guarantee you player's decisions would make things worse.

It takes a rather myopic point of view to look at it solely from what you want to do when you also have to consider "but what will *every* other guild do with such a system?"

Will the strongest guilds want to stay in diamond? Sure, absolutely. There's extra rewards.

But let's say most of the "never going to finish above 5th" guilds opt out of diamond. well, then someone still has to finish in 5th, so some more guilds get pushed down and opt out too - ones that would've gotten 3rds and 4ths and never dipped to platinum but now can't because the average strength went up. So now you've also upped the strength of platinum substantially by removing half or more of the diamond guilds and sticking them in platinum because they "don't want to be there". And some people start complaining that there's platinum guilds taking turns taking that entire map and not letting them play.

---

A better solution for the "can't play" problem, if it's still significant (personally i haven't seen it - i've been clobbered by stronger guilds plenty but never by 2 stronger guilds that instant swap all day long - at least one of the top guilds seem to run out of juice (or care) on the world i'm in diamond in regularly), is some sort of anti-headquartering logic. Remember that generally speaking rewards are better on trial 50 - so dropping to trial 1 so you can hit a ton is already discouraged.

One example of an alternate solution would be to have sectors open for guilds with their HQ close to them sooner than other guilds. i.e. let's say tiles 1 away from your HQ you have a 5-10 minute headstart ; 2 away a 1 minute headstart. This creates a natural territory near your HQ that you have a good opportunity to take back. You just have to show up.

 

[Thunderdome]

In one of our engagements, I had seen a guild disband mid-season because of unknown reasons, but I can assume because they felt they were in the wrong league as they couldn't win so the only way to get out of such was to start over. Guild treasury (if lots were known) wasted. However, for the rest of us, their HQ became another land piece that had only 1 slot (a glitch maybe) to build a camp on.

But to have a league limitation based on guild size is just inane in my opinion. There are some who wanted either the small size or just being by their own that couldn't handle the demands (or stresses) of being in a large guild, but would like to partake in any and all things provided to them. To have this limitation is counter-productive to that.

Yes, Inno could have done a better job in matching guilds based on relative size (min of 4 as we have seen with the special rounds to a max of 8 per map) as well as VP amassed. Too bad that beta was only 1 server with 1 world or it probably would work if it was like GE (sorry, I came home to this at 4am after taking my wife to the ER so I had to reply but was blown out tired that didn't realize that GE was cross world on a single server). However, live won't have that problem since the US server has at least 30 worlds to their name.

However, to this proposal at hand, I also do not support because we cannot just turn off a competition and expect to come back to the same standing. If I withdrew from a race, I expect to be either demoted or head back to the beginning (more expected on this) so it would be fair to others that put in their hard work in wanting to win.

Next season, we're going to see how our ship will fare against a large armada (as I know we're going to be thrown into a quadrant with larger vessels, erm guilds, traversing about).

 

[prblow]

As poor as inno's decisions may be atm, i guarantee you player's decisions would make things worse.

It takes a rather myopic point of view to look at it solely from what you want to do when you also have to consider "but what will *every* other guild do with such a system?"

Will the strongest guilds want to stay in diamond? Sure, absolutely. There's extra rewards.

But let's say most of the "never going to finish above 5th" guilds opt out of diamond. well, then someone still has to finish in 5th, so some more guilds get pushed down and opt out too - ones that would've gotten 3rds and 4ths and never dipped to platinum but now can't because the average strength went up. So now you've also upped the strength of platinum substantially by removing half or more of the diamond guilds and sticking them in platinum because they "don't want to be there". And some people start complaining that there's platinum guilds taking turns taking that entire map and not letting them play.

---

A better solution for the "can't play" problem, if it's still significant (personally i haven't seen it - i've been clobbered by stronger guilds plenty but never by 2 stronger guilds that instant swap all day long - at least one of the top guilds seem to run out of juice (or care) on the world i'm in diamond in regularly), is some sort of anti-headquartering logic. Remember that generally speaking rewards are better on trial 50 - so dropping to trial 1 so you can hit a ton is already discouraged.

One example of an alternate solution would be to have sectors open for guilds with their HQ close to them sooner than other guilds. i.e. let's say tiles 1 away from your HQ you have a 5-10 minute headstart ; 2 away a 1 minute headstart. This creates a natural territory near your HQ that you have a good opportunity to take back. You just have to show up.

I'm not sure 5 or 10 minutes head start would be enough, but nice idea. I'm currently here typing as everything around our HQ is locked by a big guild for 3 hours, so when they unlock it will only be us that can get them (if we haven't already given up by then and gone to do something else)
We currently have a situation where a lot of guilds seem to be opting out of diamond league by their actions. They either stop playing with a few days left in platinum so as not to be 'promoted' or if they do go up they have a round off and just sit there doing almost nothing waiting to go back down again.

 

[planetofthehumans2]

As poor as inno's decisions may be atm, i guarantee you player's decisions would make things worse.

It takes a rather myopic point of view to look at it solely from what you want to do when you also have to consider "but what will *every* other guild do with such a system?"

Will the strongest guilds want to stay in diamond? Sure, absolutely. There's extra rewards.

But let's say most of the "never going to finish above 5th" guilds opt out of diamond. well, then someone still has to finish in 5th, so some more guilds get pushed down and opt out too - ones that would've gotten 3rds and 4ths and never dipped to platinum but now can't because the average strength went up. So now you've also upped the strength of platinum substantially by removing half or more of the diamond guilds and sticking them in platinum because they "don't want to be there". And some people start complaining that there's platinum guilds taking turns taking that entire map and not letting them play.

---

A better solution for the "can't play" problem, if it's still significant (personally i haven't seen it - i've been clobbered by stronger guilds plenty but never by 2 stronger guilds that instant swap all day long - at least one of the top guilds seem to run out of juice (or care) on the world i'm in diamond in regularly), is some sort of anti-headquartering logic. Remember that generally speaking rewards are better on trial 50 - so dropping to trial 1 so you can hit a ton is already discouraged.

One example of an alternate solution would be to have sectors open for guilds with their HQ close to them sooner than other guilds. i.e. let's say tiles 1 away from your HQ you have a 5-10 minute headstart ; 2 away a 1 minute headstart. This creates a natural territory near your HQ that you have a good opportunity to take back. You just have to show up.

Sure, anything can happen. There are plenty of guilds that should stay in plat league and not move up, creating a large pool in the plat league. In the short term, a lot of guilds may drop down. When there's not enough guilds to create a 5 guild fire round, well then actually nobody will land in 5th and everyone may remain without dropping down. If I look at my live worlds guilds, at least 15 of them would stay in diamond for sure, possibly more even if they get 5th for a season or two. My guild last season got #4 in the fire ranks but we're #8 on the list, we'd still be in diamond.

I'm just not really seeing the negative in this. Diamond should be the best of the best, and there will always be the best of the best. At the end of the day, certain guilds just shouldn't be in diamond.

I'm not sure about the HQ idea because even beached guilds can take literal hours to take on one sector. The guilds that can break out in 5-10 minutes are not going to be in 5th place. And some of those guilds may end up rising from 5th to 3rd over the course of the season. I think a more interesting idea would be a penalty based on how many sectors you own outside your HQ. If you own 100% of the map - maybe you get a +80% attrition penalty on your next sector (+20% base attrition with full camps = 100% att). If you own 50% of the map - maybe you get a +30% penalty (50% att). If you own 0% of the map - you get 0% penalty. There's a lot of other interesting ideas, but I don't think GBG is going to change too much. This idea is the simplest.

 

[xivarmy]

The guilds that can break out in 5-10 minutes are not going to be in 5th place.

One player can break out in 5-10 minutes (~20-30 APS -> 200-300 Attacks in 10 minutes; more than enough for one sector). That doesn't mean they won't be back in their HQ and end in 5th or lower. Because they have to keep it up to maintain a position. Or get their nose very brown begging for other people to let them hold position

That doesn't mean they will break out - certainly small guilds can just not feel like bothering - that's their perogative. But the complaint was that they don't have an opportunity to hit anything because it gets swapped instantly. This creates an opportunity.

---

As for all the stuff about what the size of diamond "should be" and who "belongs" there, that's all very subjective. It's certainly an option to shrink diamond, but it should not be by player choice if it comes to that. Matchmaking should always be results-based or *some* guilds are going to go smurfing just because they'd rather win in platinum than lose in diamond even if they are one of the more competitive options to be a loser in diamond.

Incidentally there is a *little* bit of player choice in whether you want to move up or not via the HQ buildings. Want to move up? Build the big flat VP one. Don't want to move up? Build the one without flat VP. Unless you're dominant (and thus *should* move up moreso than the alternatives), enough guilds should beat you that you don't go to diamond too quickly.

 

[planetofthehumans2]

One player can break out in 5-10 minutes (~20-30 APS -> 200-300 Attacks in 10 minutes; more than enough for one sector). That doesn't mean they won't be back in their HQ and end in 5th or lower. Because they have to keep it up to maintain a position. Or get their nose very brown begging for other people to let them hold position

That doesn't mean they will break out - certainly small guilds can just not feel like bothering - that's their perogative. But the complaint was that they don't have an opportunity to hit anything because it gets swapped instantly. This creates an opportunity.

---

As for all the stuff about what the size of diamond "should be" and who "belongs" there, that's all very subjective. It's certainly an option to shrink diamond, but it should not be by player choice if it comes to that. Matchmaking should always be results-based or *some* guilds are going to go smurfing just because they'd rather win in platinum than lose in diamond even if they are one of the more competitive options to be a loser in diamond.

Incidentally there is a *little* bit of player choice in whether you want to move up or not via the HQ buildings. Want to move up? Build the big flat VP one. Don't want to move up? Build the one without flat VP. Unless you're dominant (and thus *should* move up moreso than the alternatives), enough guilds should beat you that you don't go to diamond too quickly.

I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. It's inno's game, inno decide.

I think I'm just out of options with the red coins. I've bought all the tiny buildings. I could spend it all on 5k FP - but when you make 20kFP per day it seems like a trivial amount. I thought maybe it'd be nice if some of those bottom 50% discount buildings were converted to red coins, but then I would never build those either. That's my biggest problem with GBG right now.

 

[xivarmy]

I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. It's inno's game, inno decide.

I think I'm just out of options with the red coins. I've bought all the tiny buildings. I could spend it all on 5k FP - but when you make 20kFP per day it seems like a trivial amount. I thought maybe it'd be nice if some of those bottom 50% discount buildings were converted to red coins, but then I would never build those either. That's my biggest problem with GBG right now.

i guess you mean gold coins? I mostly buy goods with em after i've got what i want for the championship. 100k gold coins make 50k goods.

 

[planetofthehumans2]

i guess you mean gold coins? I mostly buy goods with em after i've got what i want for the championship. 100k gold coins make 50k goods.

I've got millions of goods nothing to do with them....

Looks like this idea isnt going to pass.

 

[Emberguard]

How about we just go with OP's suggestion which would be a lot easier on the guild side to manage an opt-in rather than a total opt out where nobody can participate.

There's one problem with that;

If you had a grand total of 5 Guilds in a world, one in Copper, one in Silver, one in Gold, one in Platinum and one in Diamond, they would all be on the same island facing each other

Because if there are less than 5 Guilds the game pulls from the next League until it fills the island

Changing it to a opt-in to Diamond system isn't going to stop you from facing Diamond Guilds. Because the system doesn't lump based on League, it lumps based on highest to lowest League Points with the League only providing a cut-off point of pulling in lower league Guilds until you reach 5 Guilds on the island.

And let's hypothetically say this idea works to stop people from facing Diamond Guilds so often. Ok. Now you're shifting the problem to Platinum Guilds not wanting those lower Diamond Guilds in their pool either.