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Feedback Guild Expedition Update

doughster

Merchant
Not even in manual I can win the 1st battle (using boosts and constructions). Negotiations, the 1st round wants 50 goods right at the beginning. Colleagues who finished say they only did it negotiating and spent 10 000 goods... This is no joke. Without a doubt another big fiasco.

I know, you don't believe me. please use the EN market one more time to do a live test before the final release.

And why do you prefer to make videos about things that shouldn't be in beta yet?
Totally agree! My guildmates and myself thought it was live... until it was obvious that it wasn't. And once everyone found out what the changes were, well, just read the post within. :)
 

TARS

Merchant
The new concept can be kept, just reduce the amount of goods needed for the negotiation.
The fortifications are too weak in relation.
Reduce the % of the enemies for the city defense fights.
Also, the GE5 should not be scored because it is just not possible for most player to finish it.

Idea:
Is it possible to add a fourth button where you can attack with the attacking army, it can be heavy with up to 3-4 waves.
Also you could consider to fight with new own units like the Egyptian settlement?

The point is:
Comparison: Forgotten Temple vs. GBG session
The new building is only conditionally worthwhile.
Example:
City production: 1000fp daily,
Forgotten Temple +20%
200fp more = 11days =2200fp
Are approximately 1170 fights in the GBG. ...Right?

I make an average of 3000-5000 fights easy per session sometimes more in my main world with around 2700/1800% attack.
Why should I now fill up the space for city defense?

So, GBG is in trouble;)
 
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Emberguard

Emperor
I can not understand why in FoEvents still exist players who think about RoI when they talk about GBs. Stop thinking about RoI and about starting to earn benefits!!
If you can’t reach the ROI on something that’s giving back the same resource you put in, then you never get to see a benefit

It would be no different from buying a Wishing Well for 1,500 diamonds knowing it’ll only break even in 8-10 years. Any returns until I break even are not benefits, it’s just giving back what I already would have had in inventory 8 years from now if I never spent it in the first place. If I play 15 years then I would see a benefit. But who’s that confident on how long they’ll stick around? If I’m only playing another 2 years then I would have been better spending it on something that gives a immediate return.

That’s why Events still have a interest. There’s no wasted investment. You’re using resources you either would have used even if you never did the event, or that you had no use for.
 

drakenridder

Emperor
Perk Creator
Totally agree, wow. Work on an ARC for a year with all those FP, get it to 180, take 10% profit on ALL the 1.9s you can, and make 5-10K a day in FP -

why then do people continue to BOTHER chasing tiny FP buildings?

The strategy being used is: You begin to jettison buildings that have helped lift you into orbit - just like a rocket ship does with stage 1 (heavy lift) and stage 2. Those building have nicely served to lift you, but once in orbit - you do't need them for FP anymore.

I remember paying over 6 figures in auctions for the Art Museum upgrades. They go <10,000 now in the Auction Dealer. All the ones I obtained, are in my inventory. Not a single one is out. Crow's nests too.


That's precisely the point we're both making. I'm a fan of game economics, but there is a time you make a tectonic game switch out of that and stop chasing tiny amounts of daily FP in a event building that you have to COLLECT each day (even WITH a double from a BG!!) and get into a new dimension of the game:

Spending LESS TIME chasing event FP or even GBG FP - and making more FP by investing that you ever dreamed possible in a day...

ARCS are moving up faster in this game than ANYTHING else. It's a bonafide GOLD RUSH - seriously.
Interesting how folks tend to paint a picture in which Arc180+ are common/the norm of all end game players. Maybe the Dutch servers are unique but they’re not that common over the grand scheme of things.
As a matter of facts, commonly lvl180 or higher Arcs are between 15 and 20 on each Dutch server. Below that no more than 20 Arcs are between lvl 170-179 at the moment. So, lvl180 Arc is not common to say the least, much rather a rarity. I’m unsure if on other language servers Arcs of lvl180 are much more common but I doubt the numbers commonly exceeding 30 lvl180+ arcs, let alone 100. To making it even remotely close to how common arc180 often is made believe.
Basing off that, sure lvl80 Arc does heavy lifting and does help enormously to construct lvl80 GB’s. Yet reality is that a lvl100+ GB is uncommon, if not rare.
The usual progress with GB’s in live conditions in a 1,90 booster team, consisting of common Arc80 players, most GB’s going down a sluggishly slow path to lvl20-30 from there the boosters are picking up steam until lvl 75-ish. Pushing the GB to lvl80 slows down noticeable and beyond is increasingly slower.
In conclusion suggesting Arc180 to be common is just a straight up misconception, based off assumptions or bias. So, the claims are mostly false as they don’t even apply to a good chunk of the top1% of the player base. Even when an conservative average of 5.000 active daily players and a higher than observed 20 lvl180 Arc players, were talking about the top 0,4% to who your claims might apply. Or say it other words for approximately 99,60% of active daily players the claims are false. Don’t seem to reflecting reality as good as you’ve tried to framing it… regarding the lvl180 Arcs that pulling in 10% profit in the 1,9x programs.

I might be one of the few if not the only one who’ve gotten @Dessire ’s point and actually I strongly agreed. FP’s from the city don’t have to be actively maintained and are independently reliable and consistently. Arc depends on its lvl and opportunities, GbF on match making and competing farmers. Both are severely impacted by available spare time. FP’s from the city are less vulnerable to this and generally consistent. Besides that, the fp production buffs have the most potential in such cities.
 
If you can’t reach the ROI on something that’s giving back the same resource you put in, then you never get to see a benefit

It would be no different from buying a Wishing Well for 1,500 diamonds knowing it’ll only break even in 8-10 years. Any returns until I break even are not benefits, it’s just giving back what I already would have had in inventory 8 years from now if I never spent it in the first place. If I play 15 years then I would see a benefit. But who’s that confident on how long they’ll stick around? If I’m only playing another 2 years then I would have been better spending it on something that gives a immediate return.

That’s why Events still have a interest. There’s no wasted investment. You’re using resources you either would have used even if you never did the event, or that you had no use for.
I agree with one caveat. For many players there comes a point in the game where ROI no longer matters. Case in point, I lifted my ARC to 180 simply because I had nearly a million FPs and had nothing better to do with them. I don't think that I will ever see a positive return on the investment but that doesn't matter to me now.
 

Goldra

Marquis
So much wrong numbers... Remember that this 20% only affects buildings with more than 5pf, and dont know if it affects GB. 1000 + 20% doesnt mean 1200.
I have cleared all the GE5. My numbers:
Used 710 artificial scales, 912 biolights, 671 corals, 1163 pearls, 1234 plancton, 1327 criptocash, 777 cristal data, 1209 golden rice, 1171 nanites, 887 tea silks and 40 diamonds. Total of 10061 goods used. Used the extra turn in negotiations of tabern.
Earned no portraits, all fragments. With that, i will need 4 full GE to build the buildings, except the head of snake, that will need 12 full GE.
The 12th battle has around 1100% buff, only the last battles have insane buffs. So, with a 1000% buff of your defense, its possible to make 12 encounters, with the help of the fortress that buffs defense or some blue potions. Doing unitl this point, you will need 8 GE to build the buildings except flame ritual, that doesnt gives fragments in the last 4 battles.
The fortress that reduces the cost of negotiations, its a joke. It cost more goods that the ones you aovid to use. One of them cost 190 goods, and reduces 3 goods the cost of negotiation; that means 15 goods every round if you have bad luck, so, 60 goods with very very bad luck,
Last battle, you can build a fortress that buffs you 190% against a 2200% buf in VE...
If any GB gets helpfull with these changes, i will say Star Gazer. If you are going to negotiate, you will need lot of goods of the last era, and this GB with stage of ages and other buildings will help. Defensive GB doenst have meaning if you dont have a good buff for your defense. They are not enough for this battles.
Conclusion: Its very hard if you want to complete it, but not imposible. If you want to do it every week, its very very hard. But achieve battle 12 is possible, and not so hard to do it every week. And remember, Inno is changing his event buildings, to give us more defensive buffs like they do with phantom tower and panda shrine.
 

Kronan

Viceroy
@drakenridder - PURE 180 Arcs aren't yet "common" but are very special decisions by owner. They represent focus and goal achievement. ANYONE that has lifted their ARC above 80 to any degree has made a level of game strategic decision to pursue added benefit in the design of the game that allows them to profit from game standard 1.9 investment concepts - to a goal for added game benefits.

IN N world for example, there are nearly 500 ARCs over 120. The owners of those have chosen to FOCUS intently on lifting them to that level , or has treated the lift there to 120 and possible higher as just "one of the gang" they're lifting over time - meandering along.

But the vector is clear. Very clear to me and seemingly - LOTS of other people.

More ARCs are going up faster that Krakens or HCs or Trazs or BG or just about anything else. People understand ARCS (or learn about their power) first - and it changes their game DNA.

CF's and ARCs have historically been highest lifted buildings - for good reason. AO also has recently got a buffed shine for value at those lofty levels for many things too - bragging rights, and intrinsic help to the game - as expensive as it is.

And it doesn't take 3.8 years to lift an ARC to 180 - if you know what you're doing. Not even half that.

You can't make 5-10K FP a day @ Arc 130 via 1.9 multigroup investments unless you have a bed by your computer and you're fed through a intravenous drip and are awake 24 hours/day. IN other words, you don't have to be a topic lizard running a race to grab high value posts unless that's your idea of fun.

Sniping hoodies is also ridiculous as a strategy to lift an ARC to 180 in a time frame shorter than a decade.

@ ARC 130 - it takes investments on 50 people's buildings @ 2000 base FP on EACH reward position to make 5,000 FP. NOT hardly gonna happen each day, week , or maybe 1 time/quarter. In other words - not how you do it.

Most people lifting their ARCS are supplementing their daily haul with FP collections - but not all. Many have used the cash-cow GBG farming to get help and move them agressively up.

I can't check the spec on each world, but if you haven't looked - you should. The American servers are replete with ARCS in both FAST and slow progress higher than 80 - LOTS OF THEM - THOUSANDS and tens of THOUSANDS.

Gettting to 180 is a deeply personal choice - analogous to giving up your life to come back in here every 4 hours for 10 days, to fight in GbG.

There are tools to do a global list of ALL world ranked GBs - I don't have those tools but others do and have posted screen shots of a few pages last year, in November, 2022.

I"m sure the current list is much deeper and attentive to ARC/CF and AO growth than this, 5 months later.

11-02-2022 - TOP GB - 100.jpg
 
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xivarmy

Overlord
Perk Creator
@drakenridder - PURE 180 Arcs aren't yet "common" but are very special decisions by owner. They represent focus and goal achievement. ANYONE that has lifted their ARC above 80 to any degree has made a level of game strategic decision to pursue added benefit in the design of the game that allows them to profit from game standard 1.9 investment concepts - to a goal for added game benefits.

IN N world for example, there are nearly 500 ARCs over 120. The owners of those have chosen to FOCUS intently on lifting them to that level , or has treated the lift there to 120 and possible higher as just "one of the gang" they're lifting over time - meandering along.

But the vector is clear. Very clear to me and seemingly - LOTS of other people.

More ARCs are going up faster that Krakens or HCs or Trazs or BG or just about anything else. People understand ARCS (or learn about their power) first - and it changes their game DNA.

CF's and ARCs have historically been highest lifted buildings - for good reason. AO also has recently got a buffed shine for value at those lofty levels for many things too - bragging rights, and intrinsic help to the game - as expensive as it is.

And it doesn't take 3.8 years to lift an ARC to 180 - if you know what you're doing. Not even half that.

You can't make 5-10K FP a day @ Arc 130 via 1.9 multigroup investments unless you have a bed by your computer and you're fed through a intravenous drip and are awake 24 hours/day. IN other words, you don't have to be a topic lizard running a race to grab high value posts unless that's your idea of fun.

Sniping hoodies is also ridiculous as a strategy to lift an ARC to 180 in a time frame shorter than a decade.

@ ARC 130 - it takes investments on 50 people's buildings @ 2000 base FP on EACH reward position to make 5,000 FP. NOT hardly gonna happen each day, week , or maybe 1 time/quarter. In other words - not how you do it.

Most people lifting their ARCS are supplementing their daily haul with FP collections - but not all. Many have used the cash-cow GBG farming to get help and move them agressively up.

I can't check the spec on each world, but if you haven't looked - you should. The American servers are replete with ARCS in both FAST and slow progress higher than 80 - LOTS OF THEM - THOUSANDS and tens of THOUSANDS.

Gettting to 180 is a deeply personal choice - analogous to giving up your life to come back in here every 4 hours for 10 days, to fight in GbG.

There are tools to do a global list of ALL world ranked GBs - I don't have those tools but others do and have posted screen shots of a few pages last year, in November, 2022.

I"m sure the current list is much deeper and attentive to ARC/CF and AO growth than this, 5 months later.
I didn't say it took 3.8 years to lift it. I said it takes 3.8 years after it's done of 5-10k FP a day profit from the *difference* between an Arc 130 and Arc 180 to pay off what you spent on it so you can start investing extra FP in a next goal compared to if you just put your FP to that goal in the first place! (which btw is the same effort as making 5-10k FP a day profit from an arc-130 in 1.9 threads (half of your arc-180 profit is already realized by an arc-130 in 1.9s)

If you haven't passed that benchmark, and the arc 180 wasn't your real goal but just a stepping stone, then you're "behind" for 3.8 years on whatever your real goals are (and probably longer if you're not really making an extra 5-10k fp a day from your 180 arc)

Now the point of it being a vanity project rather than a profit project is fair enough - there really isn't that many buildings worth going far past 100 on so if you have everything you really want, and still need to put the FP somewhere, arc's as good a place as any. Only AO really can compete with it for having a unique stat that doesn't slow down too-harshly. Traz is far from the only source of units. BG and other recent % based buildings have harsh diminishing returns at high levels asymptotically approaching some % usually in addition to the increasing costs - barring a blind faith that eventually you'll get an additional charge. CF questing is a shadow of what it used to be as far as grind value goes - mainly of value for quick starts on new ages now. And then there's the military buildings at 2 levels for 1% more boost lol.
 

Kronan

Viceroy
there really isn't that many buildings worth going far past 100 on so if you have everything you really want, and still need to put the FP somewhere, arc's as good a place as any. Only AO really can compete with it for having a unique stat that doesn't slow down too-harshly. Traz is far from the only source of units. BG and other recent % based buildings have harsh diminishing returns at high levels asymptotically approaching some % usually in addition to the increasing costs - barring a blind faith that eventually you'll get an additional charge. CF questing is a shadow of what it used to be as far as grind value goes - mainly of value for quick starts on new ages now. And then there's the military buildings at 2 levels for 1% more boost lol.

@xivarmy -Fully concur on those points and how value and design efficiency turn so quickly into strategic limitations. My favorite one I also quote is the sanity of the military building lifts of 2 levels (Zeus, CoA, etc) for stratospheric costs (thousands of FP...) to gain just 1% A/D. People with A/D 2000/1500 are doing it, though. Go figure.
 

xivarmy

Overlord
Perk Creator
@xivarmy -Fully concur on those points and how value and design efficiency turn so quickly into strategic limitations. My favorite one I also quote is the sanity of the military building lifts of 2 levels (Zeus, CoA, etc) for stratospheric costs (thousands of FP...) to gain just 1% A/D. People with A/D 2000/1500 are doing it, though. Go figure.
There is one world I'm playing right now where that will be my endgame. Scraping for additional 1% A/D boosts. Because at some point as far as I'm concerned there "what else would I really want?" ;) Another world has a few more buildings to get through the efficient spots and then will be funneling its energy into AO exclusively. And my ex-main has a couple buildings to catch up on, but mostly levels CF when I need to dump FP because when Titan releases it'll be the one thing I value. And I barely play it until then.

Which is what a lot of endgame players eventually grapple with - when everything seems to do too little more for how much it costs :p Do you build a new building you didn't really care that much for just so you have something to move faster? Do you just keep throwing levels around whatever they cost on the thing you value most? Do you level other people's buildings and just build an ever-growing bank? Do you pick a make-work project (like a 180 arc) just to have a goal?
 

Vimesfan

Merchant
Baking Sudoku Master
Do you want a fair solution? Here you have it. A repost of a previous coment l did.

A better solution, please read:

- blue potions which gives you +50% of defense should give you 50% of your total defensive attack and defense. If you have 500% of defensive attack and defense, then this blue potion increases that number to 750%.

- Drink another one: it increases the number from 750% to 1125%

- The limit is up to 3 times. Drink another one: The number increases from 1125% to 1688%

- Activate the defensive bonus of the tabern, the 30% one. The number is increases from 1688% to 2192%

With this change, Innogames will finally give a better use to blue potions, a better use to the defensie bonus of the tabern and you will not need a lot of defensive buildings in the city.

You only need 500% + 3 blue potions + tabern bonus to have 2192%!!!
And if Innogames add to any of the new buildings production something like: 25% of chance to get 1 50% blue potions, you eventually will have enough to weekly do the level 5.

Innogames, please, do this change instead of decrease the % of attack and defende power of enemies.
Umm. No. A potion that gives you +50% defense boost increases your defense by 50% of your BASE defense. If you have 500% of defensive attack and defense, the blue potion for +50% increases you to 550% of your base level, not 750%.
 

drakenridder

Emperor
Perk Creator
@Xiphos the most unbiased metric to determine commonality is %, not absolute numbers. While we don’t have excess to the data you’ve mentioned, we could make educated guesses. For example estimating about 15.000 daily active players on the international servers seem to be reasonable. Estimating about 50-ish currently existing Arc180 and assuming you’ve observed 10s of Arcs racing to 180 hitting or exceeding lvl120. Let’s estimate the numbers:
50 - Arc180
150 - Arc 120-179
Total: 200 Arc120+
Estimated active daily players: 15.000
% Arc120+: top1,3%
A educated guess would be the best of top2% of daily active players. That been said the % of players with 200+ GB’s are generally (much) lower than Arc120+. However sub Arc180 was not really you’re original point. Which was Arc180 enables to profit with 10% profit marges on 1,9x booster teams. Suggesting that just because of that being possible, fps are inflated and not yielding much value anymore. Which is not exactly true. Judging from the numbers.

Besides the low and lonely top1-2% able to inflate fps for themselves, for the other 98-99% players it’s not the case. Which is my point on this claims:
get it to 180, take 10% profit on ALL the 1.9s you can, and make 5-10K a day in FP -
making more FP by investing that you ever dreamed possible in a day...

ARCS are moving up faster in this game than ANYTHING else. It's a bonafide GOLD RUSH - seriously.
You’ve tried to picture and frame the scenario of Arc180 profiting off 1,9x booster programs as something common, which is simple put completely false. Unless the best of top1-2% are in you’re books common. To me it’s not and I doubt that for others the best of top1-2% players is common.
Regarding lvl200+ GB owners, they’re even more scarce. Making them not “just” very rare but extremely rare.

In the end to answer you’re original question:
why then do people continue to BOTHER chasing tiny FP buildings?
Most players ain’t part of the best of the top1-2% Arc owners and by far most likely don’t feel it’s worth it to invest so heavily in getting to Arc180. Further more you seem to overlook critical flows in both farming GbF and profiting in 1,9 booster teams. To capitalise and materialising the potential daily fps from att% buildings, one must be frequently active in GbF farming. Which can be a lot of effort and time. One may not always has the desire or time to do so. The Arc 1,9 booster profiting approach as you’ve described and framed to be common, is compromised by internal competition and praying on opportunities to presenting themselves. Which sometimes don’t happen when you’re online or already been taken by the internal competition. Besides that it takes a lot of time, planning and effort to power build an Arc to lvl180, as mentioned before most simple don’t want to do so. Hence it’s rarely done.
FP’s from one’s city however is not compromised or drawn back by any of those. It is reliable, low effort once set-up and consistent. One need only to be active during events. After that it doesn’t matter if the 1,9 booster team members already took care of all offered GB’s. In GbF it would not matter if there’s nothing to do anymore. Cause in the end of the day, the fps produced daily by the city are there to collect. Which is, I believe, @Dessire ’s point of why fps from the city are a good idea and could still be relevant.

In the past it was the golden standerd but most deemed GbF and Arc a better/more efficient way. Let’s also not forget that on Beta most active members are veterans with deep understanding of the game and mathematic knowledge. Basing off their choices from efficiency and ROI but suffering from confirmation bias: often playing with peers that are at a similar level and discussing with other veterans on the forums. Yet most players ain’t like that.
 

maksomi

Farmer
Advice to developers, if you want to reduce the level of negativity towards GE5 at least a little, immediately start inserting the Athlon Abbey Selection Kit into the prizes without fail! Starting from the anniversary! It is better that it was there even 2-3 times
 

thelegend88

Squire
This new level is absurd.

Way too high boost for enemies, especially considering defense boost is being used.
Way too high goods needed to negotiate. Absolutely not doable for an average player. And those few who can do it will not get proportional rewards.

Complete miss, you guys should scrap this one and never allow it to come to live servers in this format. And make it not count towards GE score, it should be purely bonus level for those that want to do it.
 

maksomi

Farmer
If you now lower the requirements for passing the event, and also give the opportunity to score at least some of the necessary indicators in the next events, then by the time the event is launched on real servers, some players will be able to go through at least half of the battles and will be interested in raising more city defense stats! Well, it’s clear that the prize should be worthy, at least one Feathered Serpent Statue for 1 pass of GE5
 

XIA*

Marquis
I'm in colonial and have around 5000 of each good needed for negotiation. I did 8 gates in GEV and it cost me around 500 of each good on average. I know it gets proportionately higher then on, so i stopped. It's definitely not something I would want to do every week because then i would have to sit in an era for years and wouldn't be able to progress. It's just unrealistic to expect average players to pay close to 10 thousand goods every week. This level is only doable on a regular basis to someone who has been sitting in an era for 2-3 years and doesn't plan to move on, or players in the last era who have been waiting for Titan to drop and have nothing else to do with their accumulated goods. Disappointment. Yes, it should be difficult -- but it shouldn't be unattainable for like, 95% of players.

PS. I couldn't even pass gate 1 with fighting...
 

Kronan

Viceroy
Yes @XIA* agree with you. I'm in the Iron AGE myself, but share your thoughts.

Just tried this morning to "touch the GE 5 sky" myself, I always do GE 4, but have built up an army over my > 1 year of time in beta to succeed at that, even with losing a few hearty warriors (may they rest in peace).

It takes time to sharpen the OFFENSIVE knives in this game, accumulating patiently (sometimes not) and being opportunistic when you can to grow your skill, your boosting tools, and strategies.

After a LOT of hard work over 1 year, my little IA city delivers A/D for ATTACKING ARMY: 280/308.
Enough to be GE dangerous, and it makes for a fun adventure each week.

But stepping INTO GE 5 with A/D at a paltry 46/44 to see the lush green jungle - I feel so excluded.

I fought my first encounter on manual, and took my lumps in that I lost 3 soldiers - and said - I shouldn't be here in GE 5.

SO Inno - if you want to continue to exclude LARGE SWATHS of loyal and paying players from your investment in GE - it's the wrong strategy.


Follow the simple design you use in the GAME for the 7 OFFENSIVELY oriented war venues...

Create a DEFENSIVELY focused venue (parallel track to OFFENSIVE (classic GE) and let us GROW into it, just like we do now for all the offensive fighting we do.

GE with GE 5 as designed as a BOLT ON TO GE 1-4 is: Koyaanisqatsi

Koyaanisqatsi is a HOPI Indian word for "Life out of BALANCE"
 
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