Feedback Guild Expedition Update

[mcbluefire]

If you can’t reach the ROI on something that’s giving back the same resource you put in, then you never get to see a benefit

It would be no different from buying a Wishing Well for 1,500 diamonds knowing it’ll only break even in 8-10 years. Any returns until I break even are not benefits, it’s just giving back what I already would have had in inventory 8 years from now if I never spent it in the first place.

Hmmm.... then why do businesses ever start? It takes money to make money. If one never spends the money to start a business and takes out that 30 year loan to get going...then the business will never start and cannot possibly become a successful business. There is actually risk in real business and yet people try every day to start new business even knowing it's at least an 80% chance they will fail.

As was mentioned ealier it's not just about the FP spent, time is the variable that is being ignored when ROI is all that is viewed.

The investment of FP to produce more FP is not a cut and dry "you spent 60K FP" to make 80FP/day, so it will take you 750 days to make that back. NOPE! Sorry. That's simple math and has nothing to do with reality. That's a 60K ONE TIME investment to get a recurring 80FP per day. That's 80FP/day for the years I will play the game.

The opposing argument is you are wasting potential by not investing in doing the FP growth sooner. The longer you put off the investment the more it hurts over the long term. It is not possibly better to sink the 60K FP into owner share on non-FP producing GBs than it is to do so on other FP GBs first. The FP GB farm is what makes leveling the attack and other GBs easier and faster without having to hope for good GbG seasons or great investment opportunities in other parts of the game.

It's not about what I spent yesterday, it's about what I'm making today. The attack enthusiasts are like farmers in the real world - they rely on good seasons to pull in what they are after. I prefer that to just be a bonus along with my drop thread investments while my city brings in a stable income to keep things going at a minimum for goods, guild goods, FP, and troops.

I'll put it one last way - if I had a money tree to sell you for $30K that had a guaranteed production of $1K/month for the rest of your life starting 3 months down the road would you tell me to get lost or would you go take out a loan? If your answer was yes for the RL scenario then why even pause to think about it in a game?

 

[Dessire]

Interesting how folks tend to paint a picture in which Arc180+ are common/the norm of all end game players. Maybe the Dutch servers are unique but they’re not that common over the grand scheme of things.
As a matter of facts, commonly lvl180 or higher Arcs are between 15 and 20 on each Dutch server. Below that no more than 20 Arcs are between lvl 170-179 at the moment. So, lvl180 Arc is not common to say the least, much rather a rarity. I’m unsure if on other language servers Arcs of lvl180 are much more common but I doubt the numbers commonly exceeding 30 lvl180+ arcs, let alone 100. To making it even remotely close to how common arc180 often is made believe.
Basing off that, sure lvl80 Arc does heavy lifting and does help enormously to construct lvl80 GB’s. Yet reality is that a lvl100+ GB is uncommon, if not rare.
The usual progress with GB’s in live conditions in a 1,90 booster team, consisting of common Arc80 players, most GB’s going down a sluggishly slow path to lvl20-30 from there the boosters are picking up steam until lvl 75-ish. Pushing the GB to lvl80 slows down noticeable and beyond is increasingly slower.
In conclusion suggesting Arc180 to be common is just a straight up misconception, based off assumptions or bias. So, the claims are mostly false as they don’t even apply to a good chunk of the top1% of the player base. Even when an conservative average of 5.000 active daily players and a higher than observed 20 lvl180 Arc players, were talking about the top 0,4% to who your claims might apply. Or say it other words for approximately 99,60% of active daily players the claims are false. Don’t seem to reflecting reality as good as you’ve tried to framing it… regarding the lvl180 Arcs that pulling in 10% profit in the 1,9x programs.

I might be one of the few if not the only one who’ve gotten @Dessire ’s point and actually I strongly agreed. FP’s from the city don’t have to be actively maintained and are independently reliable and consistently. Arc depends on its lvl and opportunities, GbF on match making and competing farmers. Both are severely impacted by available spare time. FP’s from the city are less vulnerable to this and generally consistent. Besides that, the fp production buffs have the most potential in such cities.

Probably, you can't or maybe you can, imagine how much hurt do those players who say "focus only on attack, is the best way to earn FPs" to new players. that is the worst advice you can give to any new player. You can't imagine how many low-mid lvl players I have found in my world who followed that advice and are stuck. . .for me, all those players give that as an advice are one of the worst. . .

and returning to the topic, lvl 5 is the best thing Inno have created to give more importance to tabern coins + blue potions + deal and basil + defensive buildings. Inno only must give a few changes to make it perfect and I am saying this because I already gave a solution to lvl 5 problem . .

 

[-Alin-]

Not a very interesting comment, but from 75-100 flames are normal as it stands for level 4, after 100% flames become white.
Nice detail.

Spoiler: White

Waiting for the next update in GE:V to see whats changed for first 4 levels and If people should take their pitchforks if a nerf occurs again...

 

[xivarmy]

Hmmm.... then why do businesses ever start? It takes money to make money. If one never spends the money to start a business and takes out that 30 year loan to get going...then the business will never start and cannot possibly become a successful business. There is actually risk in real business and yet people try every day to start new business even knowing it's at least an 80% chance they will fail.

Businesses start because there *is* a reasonable RoI. And if it took 30 years in their business plan just to cover the startup costs that loan would probably not be approved (barring using substantial collateral to back it)! (I think ~5-10 years might be normal). The loan period may still be 30 years on the grounds that it's not healthy to do nothing but pay back the loan for 10 years. Your business needs to reinvest some of its profits into its own growth. And pay you out some too for those pesky things you need/want in life.

Note however that humans have ~50 years of "working life". So when you start your small business, the dream is towards the end of those 50 years to be better off.

Very few players will have a 50 year FoE-life. It remains to be seen if FoE itself will have a 50 year life (it's kinda a mess at 11) A 5 year FoE-life might be considered long Accordingly the RoI to be a "good investment" must be substantially faster than it'd be in real life. It has to show a return while you still care

Of course you're not taking a loan in FoE. Noone's going to stop you from making a bad investment. And you're already FoE-rich just to make some of these crazy investments we're talking about. Levelling your 180 Arc could be viewed as the equivalent of Elon Musk buying Twitter for $40B. His investment may have tanked, but he's still a multi-billionaire

 

[planetofthehumans2]

My guilds commenting that the cost to unlock level 5 is two times as much to open 1-4, and then why not let all guilds test the first week for free on beta. I didn't read a lot of the pages, but it seems like guild goods are going to fly out the window with this, gbg and gvg. I know my guild on live uses millions of medals every day on AA map.

It was a little late to change guilds, couldn't test GEX until next week either way.

 

[xivarmy]

My guilds commenting that the cost to unlock level 5 is two times as much to open 1-4, and then why not let all guilds test the first week for free on beta. I didn't read a lot of the pages, but it seems like guild goods are going to fly out the window with this, gbg and gvg. I know my guild on live uses millions of medals every day on AA map.

It was a little late to change guilds, couldn't test GEX until next week either way.

It costs 4 times the GE4 cost (so a bit more than twice the total cost for 2-4). For guilds with big treasury buildings it'll be no big deal though. It ranges from a bit shy of 1k goods per SAJM player to 160 goods per iron age player to unlock it.

So if you say had 60 SAJM players it'd cost the equivalent of 20 siege camps in the worst case scenario (which if you have 60 active players is like 4 hours worth of siege camps )

 

[Beta567]

Well, that's just the warmup. Wait until NEXT TUESDAY - They're appreciably changing things in GE 1 - 4 too, and just to ice the cake on ruining GE by FRAGMENTING almost everything there too.

That's not a very bad thing right? I mean it was a long time coming thing and I remember many people were discussing why do we need def for def army in the past. It brings some issues for oldtimers - yes, maybe it will also bring new ideas in the city design and other things. Inno may also make a defense for def army a thing like they did with attacking army. I don't know we will see.
New trends, new tactics etc. you know?

 

[Kronan]

That's not a very bad thing right? I mean it was a long time coming thing and I remember many people were discussing why do we need def for def army in the past. It brings some issues for oldtimers - yes, maybe it will also bring new ideas in the city design and other things. Inno may also make a defense for def army make thing like they did with attacking army. I don't know we will see.
New trends, new tactics etc. you know?

Yes - there are some things that have been fragmented in the game that deserve to be, but what's being demonstrated now through all walks of the game is a DEEP embrace to move more and more things in all areas of the game to fragments - read that as: NOTHING is sacred, it's all on the table.

Wait until you hear they're introducing FRACTIONAL FP! Is that next?

It's starting feel like a landslide - and new or old player doesn't matter - both are engulfed.

 

[mcbluefire]

Businesses start because there *is* a reasonable RoI. And if it took 30 years in their business plan just to cover the startup costs that loan would probably not be approved (barring using substantial collateral to back it)! (I think ~5-10 years might be normal). The loan period may still be 30 years on the grounds that it's not healthy to do nothing but pay back the loan for 10 years. Your business needs to reinvest some of its profits into its own growth. And pay you out some too for those pesky things you need/want in life.

While I appreciate you attempting to weigh in on the RL business part, clearly most businesses fail in the first 5 years. That risk alone makes any ROI seem like a joke. The ROI is to hopefully eek out a living for yourself/family and your employees and then maybe, just maybe make it to success and keep that success going. So no, no loan is provided without risk and there is no guarantee the investment in the business will pay off for any party involved. Thus if we took from RL and applied it to a game that, as a rule, that ROI with or without risk is all that matters, one should not use FP to gain FP or use Diamonds to produce more diamonds then that can also be applied more generally to not start the game at all.

Very few players will have a 50 year FoE-life. It remains to be seen if FoE itself will have a 50 year life (it's kinda a mess at 11) A 5 year FoE-life might be considered long Accordingly the RoI to be a "good investment" must be substantially faster than it'd be in real life. It has to show a return while you still care

What in FOE requires 30 years to get a return on? Nothing in here is viewed as a loan....but think about it 60K to get 80FP/day is literally taking a clear loan from one's self to make 80FP/day with no interest paid. Just reinforces the point I was making. Also, why think of just the one source as the only thing bringing back those invested funds when in reality we are free and clear and bringing in 5K-20K FP/day with no debt? That's with Arc180, a city production of 1.5K+/day and GbG. I deal in all three, why limit myself to the 3rd lowest as a rule?

As an example - moving an Arc to L180 from L80 is about 1.5M FP. After it's at L180 I'm making about 15K FP/day - that's 100 days to "get back my investment". Not worth it? Suppose I should sit at 1200/day from GbG instead? Again, though, I'm not looking to get back my investment, I'm looking to have a bigger income tomorrow so I can move faster and adapt to new concepts in the game without even making a dent in my FP pool.

It's not about what I spent yesterday, it's about what I'm making today. The attack enthusiasts are like farmers in the real world - they rely on good seasons to pull in what they are after. I prefer that to just be a bonus along with my drop thread investments while my city brings in a stable income to keep things going at a minimum for goods, guild goods, FP, and troops.

As @Dessire noted it's awful advice to give to a new player that attack is where to focus. Unless the guild is dumping their FP to cover owner share on the new player's Arc then how is that player going to get into a good GbG guild and actually use that attack, how are they going to get Arc80 quicker than I did with my FP production GBs? Players (not necessarily new) sitting in guilds that barely move in GbG would not be blessed with an attack focused city - they need balance across multiple productions as well as a moderate attack (able to finish GE64), not 2000/2000 attack with minimal FP production.

Yeah, we each are gonna play in the way that interests us and I'm not condemning a play style that works for many, but to push others to reject FP GBs and focus on the #3 FP production method [Top 10 GB figher in Top GbG guilds] is wreckless to say the least and leads to player burnout. For some this is a great way to enjoy the game, but as a general brush stroke it leaves many wondering what they did wrong.

Similarly guilds moving to higher drop rate threads like 1.97 and 2.0 seem great on the surface as a way to help their members, but it eventually ends up leaving the less than Arc130 players feeling like they can't get BPs or grow their FP pool due to taking losses on these threads which leads to underground threads in a guild and to players hopping on mutli-guild 1.9 threads just to make their Arc seem worth it.

 

[xivarmy]

While I appreciate you attempting to weigh in on the RL business part, clearly most businesses fail in the first 5 years. That risk alone makes any ROI seem like a joke. The ROI is to hopefully eek out a living for yourself/family and your employees and then maybe, just maybe make it to success and keep that success going. So no, no loan is provided without risk and there is no guarantee the investment in the business will pay off for any party involved. Thus if we took from RL and applied it to a game that, as a rule, that ROI with or without risk is all that matters, one should not use FP to gain FP or use Diamonds to produce more diamonds then that can also be applied more generally to not start the game at all.

Of course there's more differences between real life and the game too - i.e. in real life much of your startup capital goes into assets that still have value when the business fails and can be liquidated to help pay off creditors. You still didn't start the business with a plan for it never to pay for itself. Or to take 30 years to pay for itself.

In game, if you regret your GB decisions, you can't liquidate the levels you wish you'd never done. The most you can ever do is get the space back by destroying it all

And saying that you should never have started the game at all could be good advice in one sense These games do tend to be a colossal waste of time in your real life

But there are things in game that if you're enjoying yourself *do* have a reasonable RoI. Like say Arc up to level 100 or so can easily pay itself off within a year - and possibly as far as ~130 depending on just how active you are at gobbling up spots - no it doesn't make as much as an arc-180. But it also costs a fraction as much to build.

It's easier to justify things you "just want". Because when you're investing FPs to make more FPs, or diamonds to make more diamonds (almost never a good idea btw), yes RoI can safely enter into it and say when you should or shouldn't.

But if say you're investing FPs to get a crit chance bonus, it costs what it costs. You don't have any other options if you want more of it than to pay the price.

 

[Emberguard]

Hmmm.... then why do businesses ever start? It takes money to make money. […]

Fascinating as the conversation is, we should probably move it to a new thread or at the very least put the offtopic in spoiler tags so it’s easier for Juber to read the GE Lvl 5 feedback.

I’ll give you my reply in the Off Topic section

Edit: Continued here: https://forum.beta.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/roi-off-topic-musings.16111/

 

[softly explorer]

In GE 5 it reads "Defend", so why not created some kind of "battlefield" on which :
1) idea 1 : having a Fortress at your side of the battlefield which you've to "defend" ! OR ...
2) idea 2 : having pieces of a Fortress on the battlefield that Your side till halfway to place your Units on it to get way more defense/attack bonus so the battle become more tactical ? OR ...
3) idea 3 : forget the % attack/defense and give BOTH, you and enemy NO Boost, like Ancient Egypt battles are ...
4) OR please LOWER the % in att/def for the enemy units drastically !! I love a challenge and yes, I could win first 2 enconters, but after loosing each one a few times and 3rd encounter I tried hard 5 or 6 times, but without any success ! I only won the first 2 enc AFTER I build St Basil and bring it fast to level 13 (32% att/def more) PLUS did 6 levels on my Terracotta Army too (+ 3% more att/def) ...
I also re-build some Event buildings like Winter Spire, Carousels, Sundial Spires, some Ritual flames too, the Athlon Abbey(!), etc ...

I think I need much more time (at least a year or longer) to get the proper % to play and get till the END of GE lvl5 after I unlock it and pay it's high guild goods cost !! Only IF I can play till the end it is "maybe" worth it... now I see a ToR Relic is somewhere hidden further on, but I shall never reach it this week because I can't win and negotiations are insane high cost on valuable goods!

 

[thelegend88]

What a stark contraindication are you guys giving to us, you are basically saying that if we wish to defeat level 4 we must have really hight attack boosts. But if we are to beat level 5 we also have to have insanely high defense boosts as well.
So people work their butts off building attack to be able to take on level 4 and now they are forced to replace their attack so they can beat this new level, leaving them unable to beat level 4 again. Hmm, did you give this thing any consideration but seriously?

 

[Pericles the Lion]

What a stark contraindication are you guys giving to us, you are basically saying that if we wish to defeat level 4 we must have really hight attack boosts. But if we are to beat level 5 we also have to have insanely high defense boosts as well.
So people work their butts off building attack to be able to take on level 4 and now they are forced to replace their attack so they can beat this new level, leaving them unable to beat level 4 again. Hmm, did you give this thing any consideration but seriously?

It's a puzzle. One possible solution has already been described. Fight the first 5, or so, encounters then switch to negotiations to complete the rest. In its current form, it does not appear that L5 is designed for battling all 16 encounters.

 

[thelegend88]

It's a puzzle. One possible solution has already been described. Fight the first 5, or so, encounters then switch to negotiations to complete the rest. In its current form, it does not appear that L5 is designed for battling all 16 encounters.

Yeah, you do know it takes 10000 goods to negotiate, that's absurd mate. All of this is absurd, they are wrecking the game we all love.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Yeah, you do know it takes 10000 goods to negotiate, that's absurd mate. All of this is absurd, they are wrecking the game we all love.

12K in FE (iirc). Probably more in later ages, fewer in the earlier ages. You can call it "absurd"; I'll call it a puzzle. I've added a SG to my main city and will have it levelled to 75 this week. I've added goods buildings to my Colony. I'm going to lift my CF up past its current L98. I'm not going to compromise my 2700/1700 attack army boosts just to do L5. There is a viable solution to the puzzle.

 

[Emberguard]

12K in FE (iirc). Probably more in later ages, fewer in the earlier ages.

Negotiation cost remains the same across the ages. Fortification cost increases. Fighting boost required increases

If it's costing more in higher ages then it's either:

• You had a worse outcome on some of the negotiations.
  • Perhaps instead of diamond-ing a extra turn you're starting over with a new negotiation
  • Perhaps you forgot to activate the extra turn Tavern Boost
  • Perhaps on some of the higher cost negotiations someone else completed it in 2 turns when it took you 3 turns for the same encounter.
• You may have used more fortifications throughout the level
• You might not have been able to fight as many of the encounters as another player. The 10k goods is based on fighting at least 6-8 encounters

Fairly certain that 10k figure is on the basis of diamond-ing the extra turn(s). So if this goes live and you're not willing to do that, it's going to cost more just to redo some of those negotiations

 

[planetofthehumans2]

It costs 4 times the GE4 cost (so a bit more than twice the total cost for 2-4). For guilds with big treasury buildings it'll be no big deal though. It ranges from a bit shy of 1k goods per SAJM player to 160 goods per iron age player to unlock it.

So if you say had 60 SAJM players it'd cost the equivalent of 20 siege camps in the worst case scenario (which if you have 60 active players is like 4 hours worth of siege camps )

I'm just shaking my fists not being able to test the one feature I've been waiting since the first spoiler came out.

 

[mintbunnies]

My town produces 521 FP per day
- Minus CdM, AO, Cape, and Town Hall that's 359 FP
- Minus 19 for everything 4 or less
= So that's 340 FP from buildings
20% FP bonus means I would get a big 68FP per day. YAY.

Obviously a higher age town would net more. But that bonus would have to be really sweet to justify all that effort. To get my DA/DD up to at least 500 each, i would need to swap out like 400 squares (25% of my city) for those silly panda pathways. I'm not against this defending army idea, as it's been said it just needs balancing.

A 20% FP bonus needs to at least cover my loss that I would be making from my town as is now. If I am replacing 400 squares of stuff, I should be receiving a benefit that is more than that. Add up the losses of FPs, goods, fragments, Blue Galaxy dips, the losses from potential GBG. To put things in perspective, 400 squares of town is like 15 eagle mountains.

Let's say I dedicate 10% of my town for defense bonus. That's 160 squares or the equivalent of 6 eagle mountains. I might be eventually able to fill it with 80 lvl 2 ritual flames. 10% of my town just for one small feature of FoE is still a big cost to consider. But is this sacrifice worth the lvl 5 rewards?

 

[LastWarrior]

I think a look at the negotiate costs is needed, the rest is fine.
I luv a challenge and there has not been much around tbh until this.
Well dun INNO a great idea, it just needs a few tweaks.