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Feedback [Feedback] GE - Negotiation Game

DeletedUser

Guest
Luck has very little influence in the long run. The outcome of a single attempt, of course, is random to a large degree, but you have 152 attempts for expedition and strategy is much more important than luck.
Optimal strategy + activity (don't miss any attempt) give over 90% chance of finishing the expedition.
awesome

you must have the optimal strategy (many don't know it)
you need to use all 152 attempts

and then you finish it in over 90%


Activity in FoE is rewarded.
and being not a fighter punish the players once more in the game :rolleyes:

because lets compare with fighting
possible with 48 attempts. 100% success rate if someone is good enough

but nobody can be good enough to be 100% successful with negotiation


Just like when you're trying to beat the final 100% armies without an attack bonus.
but you can at least improve your chances with increasing your attack bonus

as you see the non-fighters gets punished here again:
because no fighter has 0% in the Future Era
so the non-fighter fails in both: fighting and negotiation

and which GB will improve your chance of being successful with negotiation :oops:
 
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DeletedUser4285

Guest
Maybe the 2nd GB of AFE will be about improving chances of success with negotiations for GE. :p
 

DeletedUser

Guest
awesome

you must have the optimal strategy (many don't know it)
you need to use all 152 attempts

and then you finish it in over 90%



and being not a fighter punish the players once more in the game :rolleyes:

because lets compare with fighting
possible with 48 attempts. 100% success rate if someone is good enough

but nobody can be good enough to be 100% successful with negotiation



but you can at least improve your chances with increasing your attack bonus

as you see the non-fighters gets punished here again:
because no fighter has 0% in the Future Era
so the non-fighter fails in both: fighting and negotiation

and which GB will improve your chance of being successful with negotiation :oops:
BetaTest, what are you trying to say with all your posts? That fighting is easier than negotiation? But this is obvious. In fact, fighting is so easy than many don't consider it fun activity anymore. So, can we, please, stick to discussion of this new exciting feature rather than going 100th time over the most boring aspect of the game? :)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
BetaTest, what are you trying to say with all your posts? That fighting is easier than negotiation? But this is obvious.
I am trying to say that negotiation must be made different (more free tries, buying them with medals, maybe different costs: there are already ideas in this thread)
it must solvable for all players and not only have a success rate of 90% with the optimal strategy for players who use all attempts

So, can we, please, stick to discussion of this new exciting feature rather than going 100th time over the most boring aspect of the game?
you can tell something to the developers to make this new exciting feature a success
and not a disappointment to all the players who never reaches the end:
because it will fast lose the exciting factor when players fail too often

because negotiation should be an alternative for non-fighters to do the complete expedition
not a feature to let them fail again and again
(and as comparable alternative it also should have a comparable success rate for players when doing it instead of fighting)

or has that new exciting feature only the goal to force players to spend diamonds ?
 
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Andi47

Overlord
There are a quite a few reasons, why players might try to solve the expeditions without fighting:
  • peaceful players ("non-fighters")
  • relatively new players (and "experienced" players who have newly started at a "new" server), wo have neither rogue hideouts nor Alcatraz. For those, difficulty 1 is (barely) solvable (and maybe also halfway through difficulty 2, if they have well-developed Zeus/CdM/Aachen), but only at the cost of lacking troops for the Continent Map. (It happened to me on de3, so I had to complete FMA without building any FMA goods buildings, because I reached the first FMA province only after completing the penultimate FMA technology). So these players might want to save their troops for fighting at the Continent map
  • very difficult fights at the end of difficulty 3. For those, who have each of Zeus, CdM and Aachen at level 10 or higher (i.e. at least 90% attack bonus from the GBs) (and enough rogues and other troops), these battles are solvable with 2 or 3 tries. With only 60% attack bonus (at de5) from the GBs, I need LOTS of luck (and often 8 or more attempts) to win one of these fights.

Those players (including me on .de3 and with the last few fights on .de5) want to have a fair chance to logic their way through the expeditions without having to spend MUCH more goods and diamonds than they can win at the end of the day.

And one more (IMPORTANT) thing @Inno: Many players will come up with fairly good solutions for the mastermind game, but DO NOT expect everyone to be an Einstein and find the OPTIMUM solution in each situation!
 

DeletedUser5097

Guest
There are a quite a few reasons, why players might try to solve the expeditions without fighting:
  • peaceful players ("non-fighters")
  • relatively new players (and "experienced" players who have newly started at a "new" server), wo have neither rogue hideouts nor Alcatraz. For those, difficulty 1 is (barely) solvable (and maybe also halfway through difficulty 2, if they have well-developed Zeus/CdM/Aachen), but only at the cost of lacking troops for the Continent Map. (It happened to me on de3, so I had to complete FMA without building any FMA goods buildings, because I reached the first FMA province only after completing the penultimate FMA technology). So these players might want to save their troops for fighting at the Continent map
  • very difficult fights at the end of difficulty 3. For those, who have each of Zeus, CdM and Aachen at level 10 or higher (i.e. at least 90% attack bonus from the GBs) (and enough rogues and other troops), these battles are solvable with 2 or 3 tries. With only 60% attack bonus (at de5) from the GBs, I need LOTS of luck (and often 8 or more attempts) to win one of these fights.

Those players (including me on .de3 and with the last few fights on .de5) want to have a fair chance to logic their way through the expeditions without having to spend MUCH more goods and diamonds than they can win at the end of the day.

And one more (IMPORTANT) thing @Inno: Many players will come up with fairly good solutions for the mastermind game, but DO NOT expect everyone to be an Einstein and find the OPTIMUM solution in each situation!
I agree and if you can buy more tries without diamonds and with medals (the price for
tries with medals should to raise), on that way you doesn't need to spend diamonds fore
a GE negotiation.:) The (hardcore) fighters doesn't need to spend diamonds if the want
more tries to fight (by buying more GE actions), the can spend medals. It's not fair for
the players who use the negotiation game. The need to spend diamonds for more tries.
 

Andi47

Overlord
I agree and if you can buy more tries without diamonds and with medals (the price for
tries with medals should to raise), on that way you doesn't need to spend diamonds fore
a GE negotiation.:) The (hardcore) fighters doesn't need to spend diamonds if the want
more tries to fight (by buying more GE actions), the can spend medals. It's not fair for
the players who use the negotiation game. The need to spend diamonds for more tries.

"Relatively new" players (e.g. somewhere between Iron age and Tomorrow age) usually don't have spare medals to spend (on .de3 I am currently almost finished with Early Middle Age, and I am struggling to get medals to buy Medal Expansions. I agree, that it should be possible to buy further turns with medals, BUT, there should be enough turns (i.e. guesses in the mastermind game) in the beginning, so that it should be possible to solve any encounter with fairly good guesses.

Additional suggestion
: There should be a possibility to get Observatory blueprints in the Expedition (to give relatively new players a chance to build the Observatory). IMHO best place would be the first difficulty level - maybe as a rotating prize at the final encounter of 1st difficulty?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
it must solvable for all players and not only have a success rate of 90% with the optimal strategy for players who use all attempts
I disagree. Everyone asks for features that depend on skill; but this means that not all players should be able to solve it - only the most skillful ones. If we'll have something that any player can solve - it again will be something boring and not challenging.

Of course, Negotiation Game should not be so expensive. I agree that in its current format it will not be interesting due to high costs.

Also, based on the players' feedback, I think that the game might be too difficult for most of them. One way to make it easier, but still challenging, is to allow to buy 4th (and only 4th) turn for medals (using the same increasing-cost counter as for attempts). It'll add additional strategy element [should I give up and try another attempt or should I buy 4th turn, spend precious medals, and increase medal cost for next purchases?]. Another possibility - one additional turn, which can be used whenever player wants (in the current expedition), is granted for each solved "big" encounter.
 

DeletedUser4285

Guest
The first thing inno can do is get rid of the idea that the stuff you give out is used up even if you lose. Coins/supplies/goods should only be used up in successful attempts.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I disagree. Everyone asks for features that depend on skill; but this means that not all players should be able to solve it - only the most skillful ones.
but sir, not even the most skillful ones can solve it every week :rolleyes:

so what is the one (and only) feature where the most skillful players always can have success ?

(little hint: its called fighting)

but I can change my wording
"it must solvable for all players who are using the correct strategy and not only have a success rate of 90% if you are using all your attempts"

Of course, Negotiation Game should not be so expensive. I agree that in its current format it will not be interesting due to high costs.
the costs are fine
I don't have problem with them

I have the skill to get many many goods (maybe you must improve your goods getting skill)

One way to make it easier, but still challenging, is to allow to buy 4th (and only 4th) turn for medals (using the same increasing-cost counter as for attempts).
lol nice joke

4th turn for 4 things would be possible (that is not challenging. that is a free win)
but 5th turn for 10 things not. there you really need more turns

as written above. the turns you can buy depends on the things you can offer
and the final turn (the free win) would always cost diamonds
and with 4 things that would be turn 4

spend precious medals
precious medals?
you don't have medal collecting skills ?

medals are almost worthless
I have over 10 millions in my main world

summary:
you have the best mastermind skill
but you have problem getting enough goods or medals :oops:
but to be one of the most skillful players you need to have skill in everything
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
a idea for the failers to be successful:
for two times failing the same negotiation the amount of things is reduced by 1

you fail 2 times with 10 --> only 9 things
you fail 2 more times with 9 --> 8 things
...

so success is guaranteed at one point

and for success players would buy attempts with medals
but sure players don't waste medals or goods with no hope to be successful

and to reduce abuse the first two things that are removed would be coins and supplies
or else players would always only offer coins
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Difficulty 3 finished with negotiations only.
LastEncounter-small.jpg
Took me 75 attempts, slightly more than expected, but still quite reasonable.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
aweseome
75 attempts for level 3 only
great skill game

the stupid way to solve level 3 only needs 16 attempts :D
 
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Andi47

Overlord
I disagree. Everyone asks for features that depend on skill; but this means that not all players should be able to solve it - only the most skillful ones. If we'll have something that any player can solve - it again will be something boring and not challenging.

As it is now, it is a "only solvable with playing 24 hours a day and /or spending diamonds" game.

When it should be a skill game, ist should be solvable(!) with skill, and not only with Albert Einstein-like skill.

Free wins are ok in difficulty one (at least in the first half of the level). But also the difficulty levels 2 and 3 should be solvable with a higher percentage. It should not require "absolutely perfect" scill - "good" skill should suffice to solve it.

but sir, not even the most skillful ones can solve it every week :rolleyes:
medals are almost worthless
I have over 10 millions in my main world

summary:
you have the best mastermind skill
but you have problem getting enough goods or medals :oops:
but to be one of the most skillful players you need to have skill in everything


I partly disagree:
Medals are (almost) worthless for those who have finished the newest Era and are doing recurring quests since several weeks. For "newer" players who are e.g. in High Middle Ages, medals are precious - and when they have some of those, they rather spend it for medal expansions and not for buying attempts or turns for the negotiation game.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
As it is now, it is a "only solvable with playing 24 hours a day and /or spending diamonds" game.

When it should be a skill game, ist should be solvable(!) with skill, and not only with Albert Einstein-like skill.

Free wins are ok in difficulty one (at least in the first half of the level). But also the difficulty levels 2 and 3 should be solvable with a higher percentage. It should not require "absolutely perfect" scill - "good" skill should suffice to solve it.
There is no any big reward at the end of the level 3. Player gets expedition points and personal rewards for every encounter he solves. So why an average player should be able to solve all 3 levels? Isn't it better if average players can solve only part of the expedition, more skillful can go farther and get more rewards, and only a small fraction can go to the very end?

Challenging = not doable by an average player. If you insist that all 3 levels of the negotiation game should be doable by all or most players, then say it directly: "We don't want any challenge, we want an easy game".

BTW, the negotiation game does not require Einstein-like skills. You really have to think during only one turn. I'd say that fighting in the pre-GB era was more difficult (back then, most of players were not very successful as fighters, but no one insisted that every fight should be winnable by any player :))
 

DeletedUser

Guest
So why an average player should be able to solve all 3 levels?
why should the expedition the only thing in the game that average players can't do successful

more skillful can go farther and get more rewards, and only a small fraction can go to the very end?
great idea:
lets also make events (and other parts of the game) skillful
and only a small fraction gets the final reward

and wait: lets make it luck based too
so only 90% of the skilled players will get the reward

Challenging = not doable by an average player.
people who want to play something challenging that can't be done by an average player wouldn't play FoE :p


I'd say that fighting in the pre-GB era was more difficult
but at least it with skill everybody could be successful
and if someone failed he didn't failed because he was unlucky

BTW, the negotiation game does not require Einstein-like skills.
and even with einstein-like skills you can fail :rolleyes:
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
why should the expedition the only thing in the game that average players can't do successful
Some players enjoy challenge and are not afraid to fail. To make the game more appealing to such players, it's reasonable to have some challenging elements.
Of course, most players are like you - want everything to be simple and easy (it's a game, after all). Therefore, most of the game should remain simple, with just one or few challenging things.

great idea:
lets also make events (and other parts of the game) skillful
and only a small fraction gets the final reward

and wait: lets make it luck based too
so only 90% of the skilled players will get the reward
If you haven't noticed, all major events follow the same model as the negotiation game: there are many "elementary actions" (attempts in the negotiations; shots in the soccer event; opening presents in the winter event; collecting eggs in the Easter event); player must be very active to increase the number of available actions; the outcome of each action is mostly random; there is always a chance player will get nothing useful from the event; but the correct strategy significantly increases player's chances to get good rewards.
The only difference is that the negotiation game has more difficult strategy and has a definite final reward (although it is not "big"). Not all players can reach the final reward, but also not all players can get maximum number of rewards from the events.

and even with einstein-like skills you can fail :rolleyes:
I will never fail. On some weeks, I will get maximum possible rewards, on others - slightly less. It's not a failure, it's different levels of success, similarly like winning a battle with several units damaged (and, respectively, not getting maximum points) is not a failure.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
not being successful (=reaching the end) is failing :rolleyes:


winning is winning
how can that ever be a failure :rolleyes:

if that would be failing than you would fail in almost every negotiation: you didn't find the minimum costs
or how often do you find the solution in the first round ?


there are only 2 levels:
success and failure

:rolleyes:
You are really obsessed with the final reward. You say: "I can reach the end of the expedition by the military way, but can't by negotiations. Negotiations are too difficult!!!". Here, on beta, I have only lvl 4 Zeus and, obviously, can't finish the expedition by fighting - but can by negotiations. Should I complain that the military way is too difficult? :)

The question of reaching the end of the expedition is completely irrelevant. Most of the players will not be able to finish it, neither by fighting nor by negotiations. Many guilds don't unlock level 3 or even level 2. What matters for most, is that how far they can go by one way or another, and, I think, in this respect the two alternatives are more or less balanced (with today's change of AI :)).

And, by the way, the probability of 90% for finishing the expedition is the probability for a player who uses only "free" attempts. Any player can buy additional attempts with medals. A player like you - the one who laughed at me when I called medals "precious" - can buy any number of attempts to increase the probability to any desired level. So, please, stop using my statistical calculations to misguide the readers :)
 

DeletedUser7529

Guest
Negotiations seems nice at first look, but in later stage it becomes impossible without use of diamonds. I like FoE as all aspects of game are available for players without forcing them to use diamonds. Currently expeditions are only for warrior players. Negotiations impossible to complete without diamonds is big failure.

Comparision fight vs negotiate:
1. Fight:
- 1st stage completed on auto, with 3 lost units
- 2nd stage completed mostly on auto except last 2 big towers, 2 units lost
- 3rd stage completed manually (except first half - small towers done by auto), last fights required few attempts to switch terrain, 5 units lost.
2. Negotiations:
- 1st stage completed in half without big problems. Last encounter on 1st stage required 20 attempts (or 20 diamonds if I woudnt give up).
- 2nd stage - I got stuck on 3rd big tower - after 50 attempts used I gave up. With 7 or more goods to choose from it becomes mission impossible without diamonds.
- 3rd stage - not reached

Some suggestions to fix negotiations:
1) make economical great buildings give boost to negotiations, similiar how fight is boosted by Zeus / Cathedral / Castel / Alcatraz. Ie for every X levels in economic GB player receives 1 hint during negotiations. Ie each hint = our advisor show yellow good that inhabitants are interested in.
2) OR give an extra 2 inhabitants that doent need anything themselves, but if given goods to them they will tell if anyone else wants it or not. Paying them is optional.
3) OR make goods stay unchanged between attempts - only order changes. This way memory would also play role in mini-game.
4) OR as suggested - make next turns burn attempts or medals (option to pay with diamonds if player wants). Price scales up same way as buying attempts.
 

billlaca

Farmer
What is the meaning of 7 goods in negotiating? Do they not call on 5 goods from both current and prior age, which would be 10. Please explain to this simpleton. Thanks.
 
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