Feedback PvP Arena (reworked)

[iPenguinPat]

I just merely commented on the 'PVP Towers gave better rewards' comment which is not true. The rewards for the PVP Tower was only medals, which still be gained from the PVP Arena and recently buildings that give medals have been introduced like the Terracotta Vineyard and Druid Temple.


Regarding the comparision in the ranks comment, something that I did not react on, that has been communicated towards the developing team, but at this point of time that hasn't been reintroducrd.

I wasn't comparing the rewards. My point was the rewards for pvp arena are not interesting to most players that can afford to compete. The general gameplay of the pvp arena is super flawed, not particularly fun, and super unfair/imbalanced (as noted by other players, fighting someone 2 ages up with units from 2 more ages up... i.e. PE/ME player fighting PME/CE player with hover tanks... ).

Therefore, the PVP Tower is a much more desirable feature. Like @vidicecilia said, "The rewards in PvP never mattered because the only important thing was the incomparable moments of fun."

Players want a scoreboard. They want to see how they are doing compared to other people because global ranking is completely broken. At least at a micro level, players can compete and challenge themselves and each other. The PVP Tower will be missed far more than the PVP Arena will be beloved.

Also - as noted, players already have enough things to do in game.

• Normal town development/planning/collecting
• Great building leveling / investing
• MoPo + Tavern
• Cultural settlement
• GE
• GBG
• GVG
• Antique Dealer
• Daily Quest
• Regular Quests
• Event Quests
• Crazy event mechanics (i.e. managing towns in st.pat event)
• Continent map
• SAAB/SAM Outpost management
• Research/tech
• Attacking neighbors

Most players aren't exactly struggling to find "things to do" at this point... Casual players barely use what's already here (have you seen any of the gbg leagues below diamond? Not unusual for a guild with only 1-3 sectors to finish 1st because so few participate)

I can say with confidence, the vast majority of players would much rather developers spend time fixing the features that are already in the game and making them better... Or spending time figuring out enforce game rules if players are not following them.

The number of players on a daily basis that I see using the words "burned out" should terrify inno. (Note: i talk to a lot of people. My youtube channel allows me to meet a lot of players from servers all over the world, not just my little ol server). 2020 had COVID, and GBG was fresh. Now lockdowns are loosening/ending and Gbg has become very stale and toxic. Top players have stopped just talking about quitting and are actually quitting...

So yes... the pvp tower is still better.

 

[Cleitomachus]

Why do not let players play with each other? Why do you force them to play with NPCs?
PVP=Player Versus Player not Player versus Non-Player Character (PVNPC)...

 

[DEADP00L]

I can say with confidence, the vast majority of players would much rather developers spend time fixing the features that are already in the game and making them better... Or spending time figuring out enforce game rules if players are not following them.

+1000

 

[insaneyogi35606]

I don't know of anyone that cares about the medals from the PVP towers, they care about so many other things....

1. How did Inno come up with the idea that people dislike the PVP tower so much that they should get rid of it?

The forums have shown that we don't want them to get rid of the PvP Tower.
a. It really makes players who do like it question, do they care?
b. It also makes players who like it wonder if the rumors are true, are the VIPs giving all the feedback? If that is true - there's a whole mess of stuff that FoElite discusses in his video. (I could elaborate, or you could watch it, or both)
c. Have they even considered the UX/UI of this?! Seriously! I do both marketing and web design on a consulting level and sometimes a delivery level (for companies larger than Inno). This is absolutely a terrible move on several levels for the user experience.

2. Yes - GBG was a success because of the rewards. People are rolling in fps and whatnot. Does Inno really think players need that many more rewards and fps that they have to add the arena? Guess what people's biggest complaint is? Besides being burned out in general....it's a lack of troops. So - again, on the user experience side, it should tell them, lay off. It's like a General overworking their army and not knowing they are overworked because they never visit them.

3. So maybe Inno is thinking, regardless, that there's some amount of support and they want to implement the Arena. Why get rid of the PvP tower? That is really frustrating to so many of us. It makes no sense. Like... NONE. They are mutually exclusive. As you advance in the game, you have personal enemies that you see over and over in your hood - you like to beat them, you want to do better than them. It's a WAR game.

4. Piggy backing off of point 3... This is an MMORPG (and strategy game)... we WANT to play against each other, not against AI. We want the tower to have a scoreboard as ipenguinpat/FoElite pointed out. That is the entire point for some of us - once you hit a certain point in the game, that IS what you do. Your goal is to beat or take down certain guilds or certain people. It's absolutely absurd to dev a game like this and pretend like people don't want this. If the entire way we will be able to rank ourselves against each other is server ranking or gbg ranking, you, inno have not thought this through - I can only suspect Inno has gotten bad advice OR that they just don't understand how it will affect daily players.

5. Going back to the User Experience / Interface - After working all day on a computer, imagine getting there for recalc.... doing a couple hundred fights for recalc, or even dozens or a hundred (or for some 250-500+) fights at a time in gbg... the repetitive motions to confirm because of the stupid okay button at the end not aligning anymore? Or worse, an aging player - and Inno has a lot of those. I don't know if I would have made it playing this long if it were like that. That causes multiple medical conditions that UX designers need to be concerned about like repetitive stress injuries, neck strain, "mouse shoulder" (ever get that sharp pain in your shoulder?), potentially carpal tunnel...

There's a reason why your office, Inno, invests a ton in fancy chairs, keyboards, mice, desks, etc. Not all of your player base can afford these items though. Think through your UX a bit more before just leaping into silly changes.

 

[DEADP00L]

To respect the wishes of the players and Inno's programming, wouldn't it be possible to merge them?
An arena that only concerns players of its age (like PVP) by confronting 5 to 10 players (and not 3 currently in arena) with a classification by age only (like PvP turns), even if the rewards are reduced, or even canceled?
Thus more "fictitious players", a representative classification which allows each one to be situated in each age within each world!
Like every two weeks, with each change of neighbors, I will know where I am and this will make me want to improve certain points to move up in this classification by age (as currently with the neighborhood).

Finally if Inno wants the arena to have a chance to please, give real value to the city defense one way or another!
Everyone agrees that defending is futile. Without adding GB, maybe doubling the current defense GB bonuses will spice up arenas.

 

[lordwasa]

As a side note, but of decent importance when you really think about it...

This is one of the things that is bothering a lot of developed, long term players. The support/mod team should know whether something like this is a bug or feature, when it's a key element to a Beta Element, especially when they are a Mod for the forum on it. Otherwise, it can leave players feeling like support doesn't know enough, or Inno isn't being thorough in their dev process, or that there's not being transparency.

In this case - reading the link that Lordwasa had shared about the PvP Arena gives us the answer the kleopatra911 was looking for:

• Hard opponents can be up to 3 Ages higher than you.
• Medium opponents should be on the same Age as you.
• Easy opponents are one Age lower than you.

So - FE should not have SAM opponents. Not sure why he wasn't able to give that answer, but here we are. Now we'll wait and see if Inno says it was a bug or feature. Obviously it was not intended, or their write up was wrong.
**And, if that was an indirect way of saying it is a known bug, then cool - but it certainly didn't read that way since the question wasn't answered.

That was a bug that has been fixed with the daily update last Friday.
The reaction 'the devs are looking into it' is a sufficient answer on the question if something is a bug or a feature.

 

[xivarmy]

So having ignored it for a month and been booted out for doing so, i re-signed up today to look at the better rewards.

From the perspective of a low age city (like I am on beta):
- The medals are higher now, though not high enough to be of consequence still. As a not-so-active beta player that primarily has medals from events I've got 40k medals to my next victory expansion. And the PvP tower can provide 60-90 a week towards that lol...
- I don't actually see much of a difference otherwise? The global ranking is still lacking divisions in the lower ranks to give reasonable objectives - though the declining popularity does have me at #2300 having just signed up again now with zero points If I fought to #1000 I get... 30 more medals? to #500 (which is probably unrealistic for a low age player if the feature was actually active) I get... the punishment chest ("extra attempts") replaced with another minorly useful one. There is a total of 1 player in my age ranking that reached the top 500 threshold - but it turns out he's not actually still in my age (I'm in Colonial, Fenix shows as the #1 Colonial player, but is now in Future. The #2 age player is ranked #915 globally and is the only other player in the Age ranking that made the top 1000 threshold to see a better weekly reward than someone who does the minimum to stay active). Not that it's a problem that low age players are ranked lower, just trying to illustrate the need for the reward to change more frequently at the lower ranks - OR have the age ranking actually matter. Without increasing useful rewards I'd say pull the medal rewards out of Global Ranking, move them to age ranking, and increase them again - 900 medals a week for #1 in Colonial Age would still be too low - comparable to winning every tower under the old system, but not many people care about winning towers because they've fallen so far behind other methods of gaining medals; maybe 9000 a week might be more appropriate for "winning colonial age" in the modern game)

From the perspective of an advanced player on live:
- just more busywork, it'll probably get done for the sake of free stuff. I probably won't care about it though for the most part.

 

[DEADP00L]

I think we are talking in a vacuum because we do not know the intentions of Innogames.

If their goal is to make us addicted to the arena as well as to the GBGs, then they need to improve the rewards because that's what gamers like.
If their goal is to keep us as busy as possible, they don't have to study their game well to realize that we are already quite busy, including with old time-consuming features (like helpers for neighbors, friends and guild members)
If their goal is to integrate a real individual comparison of fights between players, what is the point of fighting players of another age than his own? This is the only time Innogames should review their copy.
Everyone is aware that an older age is normally stronger than a younger age. Therefore, why, like the towers, not ONLY make classifications by age without interaction between two different ages?
With the rewards that some claim (and will always want more) the only complaint of the players remains their understanding.
Few will hope to reach the top of the rankings by being in the Modern Age. while many wish to be among all the players in their world who are the same age as them!

@lordwasa > Innogames created the beta to get feedback but without a clear and frank explanation of the expectations for any additions, it's hard to think our feedback is useful and even heard.

 

[xivarmy]

I think we are talking in a vacuum because we do not know the intentions of Innogames.

If their goal is to make us addicted to the arena as well as to the GBGs, then they need to improve the rewards because that's what gamers like.
If their goal is to keep us as busy as possible, they don't have to study their game well to realize that we are already quite busy, including with old time-consuming features (like helpers for neighbors, friends and guild members)
If their goal is to integrate a real individual comparison of fights between players, what is the point of fighting players of another age than his own? This is the only time Innogames should review their copy.
Everyone is aware that an older age is normally stronger than a younger age. Therefore, why, like the tours, not ONLY make classifications by age without interaction between two different ages?
With the rewards that some claim (and will always want more) the only complaint of the players remains their understanding.
Few will hope to reach the top of the rankings by being in the Modern Age. while many wish to be among all the players in their world who are the same age as them!

@lordwasa > Innogames created the beta to get feedback but without a clear and frank explanation of the expectations for any additions, it's hard to think our feedback is useful and even heard.

I think their desire to make Global Ranking the main one is connected to them wanting aging up to be something people are motivated towards moreso again. That someone will look at their rank and think the easiest way to improve it is not to camp in the same age forever working on GBs but to go up in age. Which there has been a need for that sort of carrot in the game for a while. This also connects to the hard fight being ages ahead of you so you can get tempted in that direction. Old neighborhoods used to provide this sort of exposure before they made them more fair (and more useless because they're less diverse - everyone has the same excesses and shortages for the most part now).

The trouble is I don't look at this new feature and think I could get better rewards if I was in the next age. Honestly I probably need to skip 5 or 6 ages before I see a tangible improvement. This is connected to the rather large (51-500), (501-1000), and (1001-3000) buckets.

Furthermore the top rewards aren't so good as to make me thing my primary objective should be to get to space age in a timely manner.

 

[iPenguinPat]

That was a bug that has been fixed with the daily update last Friday.
The reaction 'the devs are looking into it' is a sufficient answer on the question if something is a bug or a feature.

We're providing you feedback on how mods could make things more clear. Communication is clearly being an issue between players, mods, and devs.

You misinterpreted something that I said which other players seemed to understand perfectly. Now, I see how I could have communicated my point more clearly. The more clear our communication with each other is, the better inno will be able to make the product for the end user. Win win

 

[ruth the northstar]

I don't know of anyone that cares about the medals from the PVP towers, they care about so many other things....

1. How did Inno come up with the idea that people dislike the PVP tower so much that they should get rid of it?

The forums have shown that we don't want them to get rid of it.
a. It really makes players who do like it question, do they care?
b. It also makes players who like it wonder if the rumors are true, are the VIPs giving all the feedback? If that is true - there's a whole mess of stuff that FoElite discusses in his video. (I could elaborate, or you could watch it, or both)
c. Have they even considered the UX/UI of this?! Seriously! I do both marketing and web design on a consulting level and sometimes a delivery level (for companies larger than Inno). This is absolutely a terrible move on several levels for the user experience.

2. Yes - GBG was a success because of the rewards. People are rolling in fps and whatnot. Does Inno really think players need that many more rewards and fps that they have to add the arena? Guess what people's biggest complaint is? Besides being burned out in general....it's a lack of troops. So - again, on the user experience side, it should tell them, lay off. It's like a General overworking their army and not knowing they are overworked because they never visit them.

3. So maybe Inno is thinking, regardless, that there's some amount of support and they want to implement the Arena. Why get rid of the PvP tower? That is really frustrating to so many of us. It makes no sense. Like... NONE. They are mutually exclusive. As you advance in the game, you have personal enemies that you see over and over in your hood - you like to beat them, you want to do better than them. It's a WAR game.

4. Piggy backing off of point 3... This is an MMORPG (and strategy game)... we WANT to play against each other, not against AI. We want the tower to have a scoreboard as ipenguinpat/FoElite pointed out. That is the entire point for some of us - once you hit a certain point in the game, that IS what you do. Your goal is to beat or take down certain guilds or certain people. It's absolutely absurd to dev a game like this and pretend like people don't want this. If the entire way we will be able to rank ourselves against each other is server ranking or gbg ranking, you, inno have not thought this through - I can only suspect Inno has gotten bad advice OR that they just don't understand how it will affect daily players.

5. Going back to the User Experience / Interface - After working all day on a computer, imagine getting there for recalc.... doing a couple hundred fights for recalc, or even dozens or a hundred (or for some 250-500+) fights at a time in gbg... the repetitive motions to confirm because of the stupid okay button at the end not aligning anymore? Or worse, an aging player - and Inno has a lot of those. I don't know if I would have made it playing this long if it were like that. That causes multiple medical conditions that UX designers need to be concerned about like repetitive stress injuries, neck strain, "mouse shoulder" (ever get that sharp pain in your shoulder?), potentially carpal tunnel...

There's a reason why your office, Inno, invests a ton in fancy chairs, keyboards, mice, desks, etc. Not all of your player base can afford these items though. Think through your UX a bit more before just leaping into silly changes.

i agree with what you are saying. i like the pvp tower too. it is fun comparing yourself with other players. since i have been in the higher ages i have enjoyed attacking my hood and seeing my results on the tower. i even found myself competing against my own guild and it was a blast. i would definitely be sad to see the PVP tower be removed. i like playing against the other players. i like seeing how my city measures up against the other players.

also in regard to point 5 .... i am an older person.... and the repetitive motions of moving my mouse around more because the okay button no longer aligns properly in the window when fighting is a no go for me. i have gotten shoulder pain from moving my mouse around when doing different activities in the game and it is no fun and then i have to stop playing because of pain. i do not want to have to stop fighting in any of the arenas because of pain or poor user experience. i also know players who have arthritis and this change would affect them greatly.

 

[Uachtaran tuisceart Eire]

I think their desire to make Global Ranking the main one is connected to them wanting aging up to be something people are motivated towards moreso again. That someone will look at their rank and think the easiest way to improve it is not to camp in the same age forever working on GBs but to go up in age.

At first thought that as well, but moving up the ages a wee bit since the arena started I realized that the arena actually discourages me from aging up quicker, as if I actually want to be able to compete in the arena (which I really start to feel like I don't and most players seem to be the same here) I'd first have to increase my attack and defens boost by quite a bit. So while the units to fight with become better, as well as maybe the rewards like the very small amounts of medals, it also gets impossible to find a fightable opponent.
In general I just really hope inno listens to our feedback and never ever does the mistake again to bring this to the live servers, like look at the participation (in my age it's now 29 who got any points) and come to your conclusions....

 

[Owl II]

Yes, make a ruler so we can measure find out which one of us is better. And you can remove the rewards altogether. It takes one of three elements: rewards, addictive gameplay, or a ruler. If there is a ruler , you can remove the towers painlessly. Actually, there is a ruler in the form of a rating here. And it is more fair the global ranking. The same effort brings about the same number of points, regardless of the age of the player. But for some reason this is not interesting. Maybe because it's hard to push it?

 

[Cleitomachus]

You need to specify the ranking of the Age. Last week, while I was #1 in my Age Ranking, the message I received (on Monday) show #215. This week, while I was #2 in my Age Ranking, the message I received today, show #229.
Finally, I can not be #147 in the Global Ranking and #229 in the Age Ranking, simultaneously. Correct it, please!

 

[CrashBoom]

Finally, I can not be #147 in the Global Ranking and #229 in the Age Ranking, simultaneously. Correct it, please!

global ranking is total points of the past
age ranking is only one week

so yes you could be #229 last week in your age
but your total performance since arena was released gave you #147

 

[Owl II]

You need to specify the ranking of the Age. Last week, while I was #1 in my Age Ranking, the message I received (on Monday) show #215. This week, while I was #2 in my Age Ranking, the message I received today, show #229.
Finally, I can not be #147 in the Global Ranking and #229 in the Age Ranking, simultaneously. Correct it, please!

Same here. Incorrect in system messages

 

[CrashBoom]

Same here. Incorrect in system messages

same for everyone

incorrect time comparison

 

[Owl II]

same for everyone

incorrect time comparison

I don't think it is. I'm 342 at my age, according to the message. Only 262 players are active there

 

[Uachtaran tuisceart Eire]

Reporter that already but only got a "we have a look into it..." message like for weeks I've been somewhere between 20 and 40 (now 14 du to the lower activity) in my age, but when the end of week or month report comes out I always end up like 1000 points higher... Like my age rank is somewhere like 34 and the report say "your age rank was #1034

 

[Cleitomachus]

so yes you could be #229 last week in your age
but your total performance since arena was released gave you #147

What you are saying is completely theoretical.
But I'm not #229, I'm #2 in my Age ranking. And every week I am #1 or #2. Not 229 something ...!
So, you have to see the whole of what I said!